[jachee]

Speed trap as fund-raiser > clerical error lost paid ticket > license suspended > road block as fund-raiser > zero-tolerance "suspended license == go to jail" > impounded car, $1200 bond, and jail time "waiting on the judge to post bond."

[mikekchar]

Man, virtually the exact same thing happened to me: forgot to renew my license plate; got a ticket; paid the ticket; clerical error lost paid ticket; license suspended; suspension notice was never delivered (postal strike); got pulled over (suspended license puts your license plate on the "must stop" list); went to court.

The key is what happens next. As an employed software engineer with no priors, I could negotiate. There are many things they can charge you with and it is completely at their whim which one you will get. I apologised profusely in my nice suit and walked away with a (small for me) fine. Other people in virtually the same situation got nailed to the wall. You didn't want to be one of those people arguing how unfair it was to be pulled in to court when you never got a suspension notice.

Of course, they suspended my license again without telling me. Got the notice a month(!) later. I gave up driving after that. Since then I've driven a car maybe 4 times in the last 12 years.

[camgunz]

This is way more common than people realize. Simple traffic violations spiral out of control for a lot of lower income people and they end up with felonies. It's a huge criminal justice issue.

[agumonkey]

Reminds me of an article about a girl receiving fines from a girl with similar name. Turns out the other one received fines too. It's big mess.

[Grustaf]

Speeding is always illegal, and not just for poor people. So is driving without a license. Do you believe those laws are unjust and/or targeting poor people?

[wonderwonder]

The laws don't affect the rich and the poor in the same way.

A poor person with a suspended license cannot afford the cab ride to work and are thus forced to choose between either not going to work, losing their job and watching their children starve or taking the risk and driving. A relatively well off person just catches a cab or an uber.

An arrested poor person in jail waits days to weeks for a below average attorney to be appointed for them who will more often than not encourage them to accept a plea deal because their attorney has limited time and has to meet with 12 more poor clients today. A wealthy person has an aggressive attorney who will get to work immediately on getting their client out on bond and fighting the charges.

A poor person goes to prison. A wealthy person gets probation and is found to struggle from affluenza or a light sentence because of their "youth and clean record".

After getting out of prison a poor person struggles to find work and is stuck in a cycle. A rich person goes to a nice dinner.

Our legal system is a machine powered by the lives of the poor and the money of the wealthy.

[delazeur]

> The laws don't affect the rich and the poor in the same way.

To paraphrase an excellent line: The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges and steal bread.

[Inconel]

The laws don't have to be unjust for the enforcement to be biased and discriminatory. Even when the enforcement is unbiased, and that's a pretty big if, the consequences aren't nearly the same for the poor as they are for the rich.

[Grustaf]

Sure, but I think most people would agree that the problem is not that the law is enforced for poor people, but that sometimes rich people can get away with breaking the law.

[Inconel]

That is true but I think there are also times when it isn't so much a problem of rich people necessarily getting away with breaking the law, although obviously this happens as well, as much as specifically targeting laws or the enforcement of laws that disproportionally effect poorer communities.

Another issue for me is that things like fines obviously carry a punitive function, people break a law and you want to punish them financially and deter the future behavior. When it comes to something like jail time, the rich and the poor are punished the same, again assuming an unbiased justice system. Six months in jail is more or less the same whether you're rich or poor. On the other hand, the punitive effects of a fine vary greatly based on your wealth. A $300 speeding ticket might be a lesson in the importance of obeying traffic laws and a minor annoyance if you're middle class. On the other hand, if you're living off of $1100 per month, that could be the difference between being able to make rent or not. It isn't that the poor should get away with breaking traffic laws, traffic deaths are a huge issue so they definitely shouldn't, but the punitive effects of the fine shouldn't be so vastly different based on income. I believe some countries, I seem to remember it being some Nordic countries, base fines off of income levels.

[Grustaf]

At the same time, fines are surely the most bening of all the things that hit poor people harder, since unlike rent or tuition fees they are entirely avoidable.

[EADGBE]

Speedtrap officers don't have to pull you over for just speeding.

A law that could target poor people is driving with expired tags. There are people who do this for reasons other than "just not getting around to it".

[arethuza]

"clerical error lost paid ticket"

Sounds like they paid their fine and then got caught in the system as the result of a clerical error?

[Grustaf]

Yes, and that is unfortunate, but it was preceded, and followed, by breaking the law.

[arethuza]

It's not "unfortunate" it's an example of how a clerical error that would be an inconvenience somewhere where public transport is good or if you have enough money to pay for taxis becomes nearly catastrophic if you are poor.

He made a mistake, paid his fine and that should have been that.

[jachee]

> He made a mistake, paid his fine and that should have been that.

Exactly. It's not like I even made a choice to drive with a suspended license. This was nearly 20 years ago now, and it happened in a tiny no-red-light town with no computer system. The ticket was for 61 in a 55 on a downhill grade. The dead-tree paperwork that confirmed that I had paid got lost, they had the wrong address on file, and I never found out my license was suspended. Cut to 2 years later and a different blink-and-you-miss it town that happens to be on a border bottleneck is running their weekly roadblock while I happen to pass through, and next thing I know it's "Step out of the car and put your hands behind your back."

[Grustaf]

Sorry, it wasn't clear to me that you were not aware of the suspended license.

I still think that you can't complain about getting the initial fine, regardless of the size of the town where you broke the law. I also don't see how this is really connected with being poor.

If you're arguing that many speed limits are set to low I'm totally with you, but that's a separate question.

[delazeur]

Shit, do you really think that people who get speeding tickets deserve jail time? You understand that the punishment should be proportional to the crime, right?

[Grustaf]

Where did you get that from?

[delazeur]

It's a reasonable reading of your comments. Perhaps you communicated poorly? Browsing the thread, I am far from the only person who read you this way.

[shamsalmon]

When the fine isn't based on your income it does unfairly target poor people.