[throwaway613834]

I'm on Android 4 as I'm typing this and the only reason I'm even considering a new phone is that apps have gotten a bit more demanding of the CPU, i.e. my hardware is too slow for a handful of apps now. What do you find so critical about OS/OEM software updates that you find a need to buy a new phone every 1-2 years?

[dmoy]

Security update for one. Idk about 1-2 years, but if it doesn't get security updates I'm not getting email/sms/etc on it

[throwaway613834]

But your email app will still get updates right? (I guess I'm using Gmail and assuming you are using something like it that gets updates too, but maybe I'm wrong.) Same with SMS - lots of apps that get updates. What's the exact issue?

[Jaepa]

Most will, some will drop support after its X major release behind. But that's not really the issue, the underlying system has a lot of security issues (as all complex systems do).

So just for 2017 there are:

- 326 code execution vulnerabilities

- 221 memory overflow bugs

- 114 memory corruption issues

- 309 privilege escalation bugs

http://www.cvedetails.com/product/19997/Google-Android.html?...

Granted, I'm sure a lot of these CVE are very low risk, and some are duplicates (because CVE). But there were a couple of notable really bad security issues. But this is just the Android, not all the of dependencies Android has.

StageFright was already mentions, and there has been a couple of iterations of this already, stemming from different bugs in a parsing library used with MMS. Included in this is a remote code execution and an privilege escalation.

Another fun one is Broadpwn, which is rather new one and was disclosed as BlackHat US this year. Its effects both iOS and Android and can be wormed trivially. It targets a widely used Broadcomm wifi chipset, and does not require _any_ user interaction. A malformed SSID broadcast allows for remote code execution. And when I say any user interaction, you can walk by something broadcasting this and you're infected.

[throwaway613834]

Regarding Broadpwn: I wasn't aware of it, but at the same time -- has it actually been exploited, and has it been patched in more recent hardware or OSes? If the upgrade doesn't help mitigate an actual, existing threat then upgrading doesn't solve anything.

To put it another way: if you learn of a very serious exploit like this in the wild and an upgrade is the only way to solve it -- by all means, go ahead and upgrade. I'm not saying you should never upgrade, nor am I saying serious security vulnerabilities cannot pop up. But neither in any way implies you need a periodic 1-2-year hardware/OS refresh. A refresh could be justified in 1 day or in 10 years; it just depends on what the actual threats and mitigations are. Remember what the original discussion was about: it was about whether the periodic refresh is justified.

As for the rest of those (StageFright and other attacks) -- I've addressed them in other comments. See here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15040745

[dmoy]

There is no way I'm going to be continually looking for new incoming CVE that affect my old phone and making sure I have solid workarounds. The risk is too high that I'd miss one, mess up a fix, and then be vulnerable. And even if the risk wasn't that high, we're talking about a lot of time sunk into looking through security postings and verifying my own fixes/workarounds. It doesn't have to take too many minutes per year before it's worth me buying a new $130 moto E or whatever. As in like, 1 hour per three years or something.

This is the same reason why I don't run a computer OS at home that isn't patched to the latest security updates. I am not going to run windows XP at home and just disable / find workarounds for every single one of the probably-thousands of risks. That's insane.

[throwaway613834]

That's a total straw man. You don't need to keep up with CVE. You really think I learned about e.g. StageFright through reading CVE or expected you to do that? If there's a serious vulnerability that actually needs your attention, you will read about it in the news (certainly on HN, most likely also the general news if it affects a sizable population). You will become aware of it somehow, most likely before a patch is even released. You won't need to put any time into it until it happens, and even then the mitigation (like e.g. disabling automatic MMS download here) will usually be far faster than the time to buy a new phone, set up your apps again, and move everything over. Not to mention that the phone you buy won't be updated to that very day anyway, so you'll have more upgrading to do soon after. Seriously, you're way blowing it out of proportion.

[Jaepa]

With Broadpwn; Largely yes. Android and iOS both published security fixed before this was presented at Blackhat. But:

1. Android is kind of tricky though, as firmware updates generally come from the carrier not the manufacturers, and even if its from the manufacturers its still down stream of the actual patches. But the factor is kind of moot if a phone isn't getting security upgrades.

2. Google has been trying to decouple security and firmware updates, but this is only on more recent phones.

As for how much of an issue this is. Its kind of impossible to tell. It been out for less than a month at this point. And of course there are all the devices that are now unsupported and will not receive updates.

Ok for StageFright. Do you have those enabled? How many users do you think will?

[throwaway613834]

re: Broadpwn: okay, so again: having upgraded every 1 year now wouldn't have helped you regarding Broadpwn as far as we're aware now, so I'm not sure what this example is supposed to show.

For StageFright: I assume by "enabled" you mean "disabled"? Yes, I've already mitigated; it took me like 30 seconds. See this comment [1]. I'm not claiming laymen would or should do this, but I wasn't making that claim originally either. I was responding to someone on HN who presumably understands something about technology and who felt guilty about buying phones and polluting the planet periodically just for the security updates. I'm saying he's most likely already more than capable enough to solve that problem without any tangible negative effects to himself. I'm doing that myself and it's working fine for me, I'm not losing any time to this at all, and I don't think I'm any better with phones than he is. It's completely possible and won't really cost you anything at all (it'll save you money and save the planet garbage); you just need to find the willpower. For a non-techy person the story might be different.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15040700

[quicklime]

"Stagefright" is an Android vulnerability that allows attackers to exploit a device by sending a specially crafted MMS message. No user intervention is required, no dodgy apps need to be installed.

You're on Android 4, so your phone is vulnerable. If you use your phone for anything important, I'd suggest getting that new phone ASAP.

[throwaway613834]

Actually I've already mitigated this by disabling automatic MMS download, and from what I read [1] it can be mitigated in other ways as well. It can't be done in every app, but then you can just use an app that lets you do this. So this is a non-issue. Any others you can think of?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagefright_(bug)#Mitigation

[tinus_hn]

Just make sure not to open any videos from the internet. Hardly an issue!

[throwaway613834]

> Just make sure not to open any videos from the internet. Hardly an issue!

What? Chrome and Firefox protect against it [1]... do you not use either?

[1] https://www.howtogeek.com/225834/stagefright-what-you-need-t...

[veeti]

Just go through the monthly Android security bulletins [1]. Without fail there are a bunch of critical RCE issues every single month.

[1] https://source.android.com/security/bulletin/2017-08-01

[taivokasper]

That's not how things work! If the OS is not secure then app updates are rendered useless.

[throwaway613834]

I think to a large extent (i.e. enough to eliminate the worry in practice) it is how things work, actually. See my reply to the sister comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15040745

[JohnZi]

Apps do get updates, but they aren't the issue. The system/kernel/system libraries don't get updates and if they are compromised all your apps are compromised too. If someone know a vulnerability only in a normal app he can't do anything but look at only this one app, with system access well he can do way more.

(Also Android got some additional security/privacy features after Android 4)

[throwaway613834]

But the thing is, even if 100% of your apps are vulnerable, it doesn't mean anything unless the attacker can reach your phone somehow. That can only happen in 5 different ways: (1) Low-level Wi-Fi bug exploit, (2) SMS exploit, (3) Cellular exploit (like a Stingray), (4) Cellular internet connection (open ports, etc.), (5) App-level exploits.

I don't know of any critical examples of #1 that I would need to protect against where upgrading is my only solution (maybe I'll upgrade if I find one). #2 can be mitigated at the app level (see my reply to the other comment here) and probably faster so than the update you'd receive. #3 can't really be mitigated by phone updates. #4 is impractical since cells are behind carrier-grade NATs and don't have dedicated IP addresses to be reachable via the internet. And #5 just involves updating the app, not the OS or hardware.

If you can give me an example of an actual attack that cannot be prevented without upgrading the hardware or the OS, I would find that far more convincing than a hypothetical.

[veeti]

https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2017/04/over-air-expl...

[throwaway613834]

Has this (a) been exploited in the wild, and more importantly, (b) even actually patched in more recent phones?

Otherwise, how is this a justification for upgrading your phone? It seems like you may have forgotten what the argument even was. I was arguing against routine 1-2-year upgrades, not against the entire concept of upgrading for something wiht a serious security vulnerability. If a serious exploit appears in the wild and your only solution is to upgrade -- by all means, go for it. But is that the case here? And this happened periodically every 1-2 years for you to justify upgrading equally often?

[ariofrio]

Mostly, access to new apps and security updates.

But you've got a point about newer apps becoming more demanding of the CPU. Ideally, this trend continues to slow down (Moore's law is essentially over) and software engineers start to find ways to do more with less. There's plenty of room to optimize most software out there, but historically very little incentive to do so. That's changing, or it should.

In the meanwhile, an expensive long-lasting phone should make it possible to upgrade the CPU and/or GPU in a phone for a fraction of the price of the whole phone, so that the phone can be used at its full potential for its complete lifetime. A similar provision applies to batteries, which usually die after a couple of years and would need to be replaced once or twice during the lifetime.

Frankly, I haven't been able to keep a phone long enough for the software to become obsolete because the hardware breaks after 1-2 years. So I want Essential to succeed. A long-lasting phone made with durable materials and with many years of guaranteed software updates is the product we need, if someone dares to make it.

[zeograd]

security ones...

[throwaway613834]

What kind of security updates actually worry you though? Not trying to sound snarky, but do you install sketchy apps regularly? What are examples of actual threats are you trying to protect against? If you install untrusted apps regularly I could see why, but if not then what attack vector are you worried about? Are you worried about a WiFi attack in a coffee shop for example?

[r3bl]

Not the person who you are replying to, but in my case, yes, connecting to a hostile WiFi and someone physically stealing my phone and having access to my entire life is exactly my fear.

Also, being able to fine-tweak app permissions is a huge plus for getting Android 6+ phone.

I've switched to Nexus 5x at the beginning of this month. Current price is around 250€, and I basically gained all the features of flagship models (fast charging, good camera, up to date software, security updates for a year from now etc).

But, up until that point, I refused to install apps that I would be scared of what would happen if they were compromised (so, nothing business-related) and apps that are asking me permissions that I don't want to allow them (as an example, no Facebook app what so ever).

Been that way ever since I became a smartphone user, which, because of my privacy fears and dissatisfaction with current market options didn't happen until like two years ago.

[throwaway613834]

Regarding hostile Wi-Fi: okay, so that means when such an exploit comes out, you can then decide to buy a new phone if your phone is still not receiving updates and if your phone is vulnerable. And I would expect most such exploits to be specific to the phone brand, not the Android/Linux kernel in general. Out of curiosity, do you know of any actual such exploits that remain unpatched in (say) late versions of Android 4?

Regarding someone stealing your phone: I don't understand what this has to do with OS or hardware updates. You can put a PIN on your phone and encrypt it. Perfectly possible on older versions of Android.

Regarding fine-tweaking app permissions: Privacy Guard and XPrivacy do the same thing. Why necessarily update the OS? And in any case, why constantly keep updating the OS past Android 6 where this feature was introduced?

[pasta]

An update of trusted certificate parties would be nice once in a while.

Or fixes that close doors left open.