[justinjlynn]

I don't agree with your implication that semantics aren't important in this argument.

What you refer to simply as discrimination is probably better characterised as discrimination by "morally acceptable" traits while your interlocutor would characterise it as discrimination by "morally irrelevant" traits. This, I think, is the heart of the debate. It's clear that discrimination is occurring. The real question of debate is whether or not it's acceptable.

It's politically untenable to admit that and so we do actually have to discuss semantics. After all, can you imagine having to say "I'm being sexist but it's okay, he's male." or being called a misogynist and saying one is proud of that fact?

[nirvanatikku]

I didn't say that semantics were unimportant overall, I'm implying that its erroneous to assert that there's discrimination at play against men in this context because to imply so, supports the stale argument that policies favoring equal gender representation discriminate against men.

[justinjlynn]

A fair statement. However, can we make a blanket statement about all policies or all possible such policies? Some of them are quite blunt (i.e. direct quota specification) and others attempt to address conditions that contribute to unequal outcomes and/or opportunities (i.e. hostile working environments). Each policy attempts to address the problem differently with different effects on those seeking to enter, work in, or leave the field. Could some clumsily implemented policy somewhere unjustifiably exclude someone or make conditions worse for them because of something they can't control?

I think the answer to that question is certainly a yes. Is it possible that some of those discriminated against identify as male? Again, yes. We shouldn't make blanket statements or dismiss complaints about specific possible injustices. To do so is to forget how we got to the worse place we were at decades ago and risk going back there (in any direction). I can't imagine any of us want that.

[nirvanatikku]

"because of something they can't control" is a dangerous point to me; while I may not be able to change or "control" the fact that I am male, I can certainly gain awareness of my male privilege and behave in a way that does not perpetuate it.

So going to back to the original poster, had he been aware of this privilege he would not make statements about reverse discrimination or some injustice being perpetuated against him or other men due to policies that support women's equal participation in our industry.

[justinjlynn]

Well, you're right. My usage of the phrase "something they can't control" as synonymous with unjust discrimination is culturally based. It is possible that one might, for example, find a caste system to be moral. I wouldn't do so, but that doesn't mean others cannot.

However, I must take issue with your statements regarding privilege. Privilege isn't something one chooses to take, it's something one is given and gives. It is impossible for each of us to escape the privileges we're granted and we should all be mindful of them. Everyone is, in some way, privileged.

Again, this isn't a debate about whether or not privilege exists, it's a debate about how/if we go about ensuring that everyone has the privileges they desire. As such, we all have a responsibility to point out the unjust granting of privilege and to not grant it to others ourselves. As policies are a matter of consensus and systematise privilege, I would say that OP is doing the right thing in calling out what they see as unfair and unjust so that we can have this discussion, just as those with opposing perspectives are doing.

I think we've all already come to the conclusion that equality of opportunity is a privilege we all would benefit from. That is, we should all have the freedom to be treated as an individual in individual circumstances. Now, and as always, we have to be careful to separate the debate of whether or not someone should have a privilege from the debate about how we go around systematising that privilege in order to avoid unintended consequences. We've already had the first as a society and now we have to do the work required of the second. It's always a messy process but if it is to be truly representative everyone with a grievance willing to engage in thoughtful, honest discussion should have a seat at the table. It does very little good to discriminate in the talks about how we end discrimination - we would simply be repeating history and, if we don't like how it went the last time, why do that?

Note: I am aware that the first debate is still occurring in some isolated locations. However, I speak from where I have experience and do not claim authority anywhere else.

[nirvanatikku]

Re: taking issue with my statement on privilege -- I'm thoroughly confused by your comment "privilege .. [is] something one is given and gives." Male privilege is an inherent trait. It is up to us to become aware of it and not perpetuate it's consequences in our industry.

Not sure what you mean by "we've all already come to the conclusion that equality of opportunity is a privilege we all would benefit from".. equal opportunity is not a privilege - it's a baseline.

How can you genuinely say that everyone is "in some way privileged"? The whole idea of privilege is that only few have it, especially in the context we're talking about. I can think of so many marginalized groups in society that enjoy no privilege whatsoever.

Lastly, re: "we would simply be repeating history", please shed light on this, I don't really get it.

[justinjlynn]

Regarding male privilege, could expand on what constitutes said privilege and how male-ness inherently entails those constituent privileges such that they're entailed even when completely removed from a given societal context and placed into any possible societal context? If privilege is inherent in male-ness even when removed from a societal construct, and thus portable to any possible societal context, then how does that reasoning then relate to the popular idea that male-ness is itself a social construct which cannot be removed from a societal context? Perhaps I misunderstand your position, but it seems a circular line of reasoning if one holds both true. Granted, you did not indicate that you did, which is why I raise the question.

Actually, given the confusion around the word discrimination earlier, how do you define privilege?

Regarding equal opportunity being a baseline, I would have to disagree. As individual circumstance varies based on, well, circumstance, opportunities cannot be equal except through the privilege of societal intervention to make them so.

In regards to your statements that some marginalised groups enjoy no privileges whatsoever, they may be true in a given sociocontextual frame. However, shift that frame and you might be able to find some privilege, for example those of the same class are more likely to be perceived positively by other members of the same class (a form of tribalism) which is a privilege outsiders do not receive. This is what I mean by "in some way" - I am not holding some privileges as more valuable that others. I suppose the only way to really eliminate privilege is to eliminate social contexts and interaction; or at the very least the experiences of all those who interact in said society. However, that's not exactly a practical option.

With regards to repeating history, well, you might imagine exclusion of voting rights of minorities - disenfranchisement - as a parallel to telling people they shouldn't contribute to a discussion regarding them because of some otherwise irrelevant trait. That is, in a gross simplification, the situation to which I am alluding.

[JakeAl]

There is just as much male privilege as there is female privilege, and the same goes with any group. It's entirely situation. Seniority in a job is privilege. Merit-based success is privilege. A person with a driver's license is privileged over one who doesn't have a driver's license. Feel free to list examples of marginalized groups that enjoy no privilege and I'll show you others not part of that marginalized group when introduced to that group demonstrate a lack of privilege.