[mgkimsal]

At the risk of incurring some pushback (which has happened when I've posted this topic before), some of the situations highlighted when discussing sexism against females ("in tech", usually, based on where I read them), has been something I and others have experienced as well, even though I'm not a female.

The stories of "getting ignored in meetings" and "having your ideas glossed over until someone else ('a man') puts them forward" resonate with me and other men I know as well. There are real power dynamics in some companies/orgs which usually mean that not only do ideas generally only get to come from men, but usually only certain types of men: the men who 'fit in' with management already.

But when pointing this out, I've been accused of ignoring sexism, or trying to downplay sexism, or trying to say it doesn't exist. None of those are true; I know it's a thing, but sometimes some of the symptoms seen may not actually be the result of gender bias (or race bias), but 'culture bias'. Sometimes someone's just being a jerk, not a 'sexist jerk', but if there's a gender difference, somehow 'sexism' is automatically applied to the equation, which may not always be warranted.

The impact of the biases I've experienced is still likely less detrimental than the effects of sexism on women in tech.

[mickronome]

I'm a senior developer 20+ years of experience, but due to whatever reason most people tend to assume I'm between 25 and 30, which is more than a decade off.

My experience is that the kind of extrovert personalities we more often see in management or sales tend to undervalue both competency and experience unless I either prove myself spectacularly, or use a much more assertive, and to my sensibilities almost aggressive, style of communication.

Only rarely does this kind of problem occur with more introvert and/or majorly creative personalities commonly found on the tech side.

My belief is that while there obviously are straight up gender discrimination of a more structural nature, there also exist multiple trait dependent discrimination/biases which affects anyone regardless of gender, but sometimes to different extent.

A mild mannered 6' giant will still be listened to, a similarly mild mannered rail thin 120 pound brute will be ignored to some extent, I can only imagine that a similarly mild mannered petite woman will face quite brutal ignorance.

[TheOtherHobbes]

IMO this is very much more of a problem than "sexism". The reality is that business and politics are full of noisy self-regarding idiots, a fair proportion of whom are spectacularly incompetent.

Feminism seems to assume that there's a homogenous social and political group called "men" which is made up of people like this, and which automatically gives males free entry, with corresponding privileges.

Conversely being female means you are excluded from this group.

Both positions are nonsense.

The problem is behaviour, not gender. While it's - arguably, but probably - true that a disproportionate number of these idiots are male, it's absolutely not true that all males are like this.

It's also not true that no women are like this.

Again - the problem is behaviour. Not gender.

So when one of these annoying people talks over a woman in a meeting, women assume it's because of sexism. When in fact it's because of a political and cultural phenomenon that treats quieter and more thoughtful men in exactly the same ways.

Even though this phenomenon is absolutely endemic in business and politics, it doesn't even have a name.

[nonamechicken]

I am a 10+ years male developer and I experience all those you said below too: "Getting passed over or ignored or bullied or silenced hurts no matter what the motivating factors"

I have been bullied so much that I avoid walking through the section where a particular guy sits. I have pointed out technical issues in projects many times, nothing happened. Thinking I am not good at speaking, I started emailing them. Still I get ignored. The only time they seem to think of me is when there is some travel required that would require several weeks of stay at a hotel.

I am thinking of leaving the software profession altogether. The only reason I haven't walked out till now is the fear of unknown.

[deorder]

This used to happen to me as well. Every new place I started, at the beginning it was fine, but after while I started to feel uncomfortable with some of the people and feel like not belonging to the group anymore.

What fixed it for me:

- Changing jobs also getting a higher salary / more to say over other people.

- Challenging myself to just do the things I fear. Just walk through that section, just do it, overcome it. No need to talk. Just walk there, look out of the window if there is one there with your coffee in your hand. Relax.

- Not putting too much energy into talking to people if not needed. Better to talk less than too much.

- Socializing more outside of my job to become more certain of myself. No need to go to disco clubs or bars, even going to hackatons and meeting new people will help.

- Learn to represent myself better and being aware of my looks (ask friends or family to help).

- Not taking things too personally.

[TimJYoung]

Have you considered trying to do just remote work for a while ? It may, at the very least, give you some time to relax and not be subjected to the crap that you've been dealing with. I think you'll find that dealing with customers, while still problematic at times, can be much, much easier than dealing with coworkers that are jerks. You can always fire the customers. :-)

[mgkimsal]

You're not alone, so take that unknown off your plate.

If you want to talk privately, email me.

[LifeQuestioner]

Sorry to hear that :(. And to be honest - no matter what is happening whether it's sexism or watever the reason. I can understand how horrible that must feel.

40 years ago - Stephanie Shirely did have to sign her name as "Steve" in order to get contracts. If they saw a female name she would not get them. Only 40 years ago - the sexism is still going to be there somewhere in people. But "sexism" could be replaced by many other bias's - culture etc.

The only people who seem less likely to be affected by Bias's and sterotypes are people on the autistic spectrum! Maybe we should be hiring these guys as our managers, seriously.

[mgkimsal]

Thanks, although I'm not in massive need of sympathy on this front :)

Getting passed over or ignored or bullied or silenced hurts no matter what the motivating factors.

[deorder]

Exactly this and I feel it is getting worse. People are increasingly getting into IT/ICT because of the job security and the money it brings, not really out of passion anymore. This also attracts certain kind of personalities I cannot really get along with.

I am just lucky that people respect me because of my 20+ years of professional experience. The office is really like a battlefield sometimes and I learned not to take things personally.