[dvfjsdhgfv]

It's not gonna happen. There is a whole movement for "getting girls into coding" - conferences, organizations, workshops... You might say they don't really care what girls feel. But it's more complicated than that: these people think that girls have been conditioned, and the can be reeducated to like tech. That's an ideological issue, hard to debate because it's based on deep convictions. So no, they won't stop shoving tech down their throats.

[froindt]

It is a tricky issue. I have a bunch of friends who were involved in these programs in college. I didn't quite get it until one of them pointed at the computer engineering and software engineering programs on campus. Of all the engineering fields, theirs had the most unbalanced ratio of men and women.

That's not to say I think it must be exactly 50/50, and I definitely agree merit should be the consideration in hiring. But if young girls go to a general "learn about engineering" event and see 90% men presenting, go over a number of years, and never see a woman in computer or software engineering present, they probably wouldn't be very interested in those programs.

And if they got to college and started in the program, they are one of (literally) about 2 women in the ~100 freshman, they do have additional challenges to face in the program. Numerous times I've seen women in engineering groups bring up a point, get it poo-poo'd, only for a man to think of it a few minutes later and advance the team on the project. Watch for it, it happens more than you'd think. They will likely also face some degree of awkward guys asking them for dates, really awkward social interactions with some members of their major members, etc.

There's a study (I can't find it right now) which looked at the composition of groups in engineering classes. IIRC, groups with 1/4 woman member had very low participation levels by the woman, but comparable levels with 2/4.

[viral_krieger]

> You might say they don't really care what girls feel.

What do you mean by this?

> these people think that girls have been conditioned, and the can be reeducated to like tech.

Boys and girls are conditioned by their toys and hobbies at a young age. Statistically, boys are encouraged to play with toys that develop their large motor and spatial skills while girls are encouraged to play with toys that develop their social and emotional skills. These "getting girls into coding" workshops are used to expose girls to toys and skills that they might have not had the chance to experience before. There is no "reeducating to like tech" going on. These events are purely voluntary and from my experience, the girls have a ton of fun.

[dvfjsdhgfv]

>> You might say they don't really care what girls feel.

> What do you mean by this?

What I mean is that as a parent, I'm sometimes puzzled by very strong opinions and preferences my children have. It struck me at the very beginning, before they had a chance of being conditioned by other kids from the kindergarten etc. Mostly they were conditioned by us, the parents.

My boy loved airplanes. He didn't like cars much, just airplanes. I like cars and I'd like him to like cars. Also, as a male parent, I'd like my daughter to do certain things I like. I was only partially successful, she still loves much more certain things I detest (all this princess stuff, I think it's terrible for a number of reasons, but that's not the point here).

What I want to say is that children have their feelings and preferences. And if you ignore these and try to implant in them other preferences, you're basically going against their will. I saw it happen many times. For example, there are some excellent teachers who do their best and manage to kindle a spark of interest in young heads for any subject. But it never works for all students. Some are more interested, some less. Trying to get those who are less interested at all cost doesn't seem the right thing to do to me. This is what I mean by "ignoring feelings".

[viral_krieger]

Children do have strong opinions and I don't think that we should try to change their preferences. These "women in tech" events are not used to change opinions, they're used to expose people to ideas they might have not been exposed to before. Imagine if your son never saw an airplane before and grew to up to be 10 years old without ever thinking about an airplane. At 10 years old you voluntarily bring him to the nearest airport and pilots show him around the airfield all day. Your son has a blast and realizes that he loves airplanes. Wouldn't that be great for your son?

> And if you ignore these and try to implant in them other preferences, you're basically going against their will.

These "women in tech events" are purely voluntary and if anyone wants to leave for any reason, they can get up and go. I have never seen someone pushed against their will or preferences at these events. I agree that if a student isn't interested in a subject, you shouldn't push it on them. I don't see how exposing a student to an area of study in a completely positive matter is pushing someone against their will.

[renaudg]

Exactly.

In the extreme case of attempting to put ideology before reality, you end up with the appalling story of this activist kindergarten teacher : so desperate to see girls interested in LEGOs (she sees them flocking towards dolls and crayons instead) and to actively correct "bias", she decides to take the bricks away from the boys.

http://www.bainbridgereview.com/news/blakely-teacher-restric...

“I always tell the boys, ‘You’re going to have a turn’ — and I’m like, ‘Yeah, when hell freezes over’ in my head”, she says.

[viral_krieger]

You bring up a great point that this is not a black and white issue. It is possible to push an idea so far that it harms the students. I don't think we should try to "correct" the bias students have towards toys. If a boy wants to play with dolls or if a girl wants to play with Lego, we should encourage them. If a boy doesn't want to play with dolls or a girl doesn't want to play with Lego, we shouldn't push it on them.

My point is that we shouldn't raise children in an environment where a boy never has the chance to play with dolls or a girl never has the chance to play with Lego. We should expose children to all different types of toys and ideas, and let them decide what they enjoy.

It's clear that Karen Keller shouldn't have discouraged the boys from playing with Lego in the classroom. These "women in tech" events don't discourage girls from playing with toys or makeup. These events expose girls to tech related toys or ideas and if the girls enjoy it, good for them. If the girls don't enjoy the event, they aren't pushed into attending more "women in tech" events. I don't see any harm with exposing young students to ideas they might have not been exposed to before.

[renaudg]

Gender differences in toy preferences have been observed as early as two days after birth, arguably before any supposed conditioning has been able to take place.

From : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

"Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization."

[viral_krieger]

That was a good article, thanks for linking it. It's good to keep in mind that there are biological differences between men and women and we shouldn't ignore those.