[mc32]

Right, it's complicated and it's not clear cut. Amassing power is always a cautious endeavor that should be viewed with suspicion --but that's not always "undemocratic" people may want and vote for that --that all may lead to an eventual undemocratic regime which intimidates, fires rivals, jails and extorts its population ala Chavez. Poland and Germany are far from that.

[markvdb]

"Democratic" has been overloaded with meanings and has become very ambiguous in that respect. That is the real problem.

My guess is that many here say "democratic" and mean "a system that will guarantee one respect as per John Rawls' veil of ignorance [0]". A parliamentary democracy with clear separation between legislative, executive and judiciary seems to be the lease bad solution humanity has been able to come up with for now.

Venezuela, Turkey and Poland are just recent highlights of how vulnerable parliamentary democracy is...

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance

[alkonaut]

It's a slippery slope. In the beginning it looks like innocent little constitutional changes etc. Usually under the pretense of some external enemy (Terrorists, whatever). some private media losing their broadcast rights (Poland). Journalists arrested on terror charges under very strange circumstances (Turkey) and so on.

Once these changes are in place, and the division of power and free press is gone - the goal is open to move much faster. That's why it's so alarming in Poland/Turkey even though Venezuela is much worse already. Liberal democracy is brittle, and it can still be saved in Poland/Turkey. In Venezuela it has to be built.