[tptacek]

I don't know what these terms even mean. "White hat hacker"? Is that what we call "everyone who does anything in infosec but doesn't sell stolen financial information obtained from botnets"?

The attempt to divide the whole world into "people irrationally attacking 'hackers' and 'the good kind of hackers'" isn't doing anyone any favors.

If Hutchins has nothing to do with a criminal conspiracy to profit from a truly awful banking trojan, then his arrest and indictment is a travesty. But if he does have something to do with it, then his status as any kind of "hacker" should have nothing to do with anybody's take on the situation. I'm not sure how much lower you can go than deliberately making money by stealing bank logins from ordinary people, which is what he's accused of doing.

People love to talk about how the FBI has a history of framing people --- and in other fields they might. But there is no track record I'm aware of for the FBI to make up a story like this out of whole cloth. In every case like it, from NanoCore to Albert Gonzales and Stephen Watt, there's been a basis for the charges.

[syshum]

>People love to talk about how the FBI has a history of framing people --- and in other fields they might. But there is no track record I'm aware of for the FBI to make up a story like this out of whole cloth.

No? It is fairly common in Terrorism cases. I fail to see why they could not do it for Cyber Crime as well

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/05193620404/fbi-c...

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/08/us/fbi-isis-terrorism-sti...

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150316/17433230331/fbi-p...

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140722/14463127971/repor...

Want more?

[rainsford]

> Want more?

Well, yes, since none of those are actually examples of the FBI framing anyone. Stings are not the same thing as framing, no matter how much sarcasm techdirt uses to describe them.

A sting is law enforcement creating a situation where someone can demonstrate clear evidence of their intent to break the law. Framing is law enforcement MANUFACTURING evidence that someone broke or intended to break the law.

In the terrorism cases, a sting would be the FBI giving someone a fake bomb and that person trying to blow people up. Framing would be the FBI arresting someone and falsely claiming they found a bomb and plans for the local stadium in the persons's house. It's an important distinction. In the former case, the person clearly tried to kill people while in the latter case they did not.

[syshum]

>In the terrorism cases, a sting would be the FBI giving someone a fake bomb

No that should be entrapment

A Sting is where they get a tip that criminal action might be happening and they are there to catch the criminals in the act

Not where the FBI creates the plan, induces people into the plan, provides support for the plan, provide materials for the plan, then arrests everyone.

That is or should be considered entrapment, which I also consider framing someone

[selectodude]

If I ask the FBI for a bomb and they give it to me and then arrest me that isn’t entrapment. That’s me being a jackass.

If the FBI put cocaine in my car and then pulled me over, that’s framing.

I’m not entirely sure what either of these things have to do with getting arrested for creating and selling exploits.

[mattnewton]

IANAL, but I entrapment can occur when law officers enticies the suspect to commit a crime the wouldn't normally https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

The definition of "wouldn't normally" looks like some hairy case law, but it isn't as simple as you are saying. If they are offered a bomb for sale after a lengthy conversation about how great terrorism is and how important it would be for them to take the bomb, you could possibly have an entrapment case for example.

[natch]

Wen-Ho Lee. Evidence showed that the leaked/stolen documents could only have come from a downstream contractor, not from Lee's lab. And yet the FBI latched on to him and wouldn't let go. Everything you think you know about the case is likely built on flawed reporting fueled by deliberate government leaks. Don't get me started... just know that what you think you know about that case is probably wrong. I was at most of his hearings and watched the judge apologize to him for the DOJ's behavior.

But as you say maybe that's another field. But still skepticism is not without basis imho.