[cmahler7]

I agree, the show has really declined without being able to stand on GRRM's shoulders. Battles are still good but the dialogue has been terrible and they miss a lot a nuance that's in the books.

It's probably demotivating as a writer to see a lot of the twists you've been preparing for years exposed in the show before, stuff like hold the door, resurrection, etc.

[qubex]

I don't know why you've been voted down.

I definitely feel the same way: the books were brilliant and as long as the TV series was showcasing the previously written material the plot and dialogue were very solid. Since they ran out of books to show I've perceived a very sharp decline in quality, and they've fallen back on cliffhangers, twists, sex and violence to keep the audience riveted. Unfortunately, for this particular viewer at least, it really isn't working very well.

[Noos]

The books were junk, honestly. They were the same kind of doorstop novels as Wizard's Last Rule and the Wheel of Time, just with more nastiness, and they are showing the same flaws as those books. Do a standard epic fantasy, bloat it into at least seven novels, and add some transgressiveness to make it spicier.

I think the SF/f genre has really struggled lately...stuff like Brandon Sanderson writes feels so lightweight compared to even the second tier authors of the past, and there's very little flavor in books now; it's formulaic and narrowed to such a tight audience.

[kasey_junk]

Sturgeons law applies, survivor bias applies. There is lots of great SF/fantasy out these days it's just swamped by the not great stuff. Just like in the past.

[monocasa]

> Since they ran out of books to show I've perceived a very sharp decline in quality, and they've fallen back on cliffhangers, twists, sex and violence to keep the audience riveted.

When was that not Game of Thrones MO?

[EnFinlay]

It's a subjective thing, but I feel that in the past GoT was a cake where the base was characters, dialogue, and world, topped with an icing of cliffhangers, sex, and subverting audience expectation. Now it feels like a lot of icing with too little cake.

Put differently, yes, those things were always there, but now they are ALL that is there.

[mercer]

Agreed. The writing can be downright terrible at times, and it's usually when they deviate from the source material.

I've noticed something similar with Westworld. I love the premise, and I'm a huge fan of Anthony Hopkins in particular. But the writing just feels so bad most of the time. I don't think it's a coincidence that the best scenes involve Hopkins, and what makes them good is not primarily the dialogue.

It's really... jarring to be watching something that clearly cost a lot of money to produce, involved a lot of very skilled people, and yet manages to be absolutely atrocious when it comes to dialogue or plot. It always makes me wonder how the showrunners managed to get the gig.

Both Westworld and GoT are HBO shows, so maybe that has something to do with it. While I do enjoy both shows, it's more for the cultural buy-in and the budgets involved. The writing pales in comparison to that of many other shows on other channels (FX being my favorite, followed by perhaps AMC)

(Incidentally, this is something I've been confused about for a while. How was Moffat allowed to ruin Doctor Who so utterly over multiple seasons? How did Braga/Berman get to be showrunners for Enterprise when at least one of them (don't remember which) was generally disliked for his contributions to earlier seasons?)

[qubex]

I'm curious to see what will come of Westworld now that Hopkins' character is (apparently?) out.

As for quality of material, I don't know whether to list Mr Robot as an example of good writing or not. It's got good dialogue (and accurate hacking scenes!) but overall the plot seems to be borderline-ludicrous and the Anonymous/Occupy Wall Street ”stick-it-to-the-man” objective seems so... puerile?

[dustingetz]

Yeah, S1-2 gave deep insight into the characters and their motivations and the way their world worked. E.g. watching Tywin navigate power structures. Like the first three books. S6 is a soap opera.

[unclebucknasty]

Yeah, the first seasons felt like they were book-based, with the detail, development, and pacing, etc.

But, this season (7) particularly feels like an episodic TV show. Much faster paced, with less subtle-dialogue, and kind-of hit-you over-the-head plotlines and dialogue. For instance, in the first episode, Jaime painstakingly described to Cersei their predicament as if he was talking directly to the audience. It felt a bit dumbed-down and beneath previous seasons, wherein Tywin might've talked strategy more cleverly.

They are also using somewhat gimmicky cinematic devices, like Tyrion narrating alternative attacks on Casterly Rock; and Sam emptying toilets, cut with him serving food.

Altogether, I am still enjoying it though. Some of the book's plotlines weren't conducive to the screen (e.g. Bran's). So, reducing time spent in the tedium there was good IMO.

OTOH, it feels a little rushed and more "obvious". Don't know if it's because they are so far from the books now or they are just trying to wrap it up.

[dsnuh]

There are some things they dropped from the books that have really disappointed me. Mostly the whole Lady Greyheart story arc, which I fear will be quickly dropped from any hypothetical new books in the series from GRRM.

[Cyph0n]

I believe it was Lady Stoneheart. But I agree, it was a shame that they removed her completely. Now the whole Lord of Light arc feels flimsy at best.

[dsnuh]

Of course, you're correct. It's been about 5 years since I read the books, and all the Greystokes, Boltmonts,and Tannisters bleed together. ;)

[mercer]

I was never a fan of the goody-goody two-shoes Storks. The real heroes are the non-house-affiliated characters like Persistys and Smalltoe. Perhaps Aria too.

[dsnuh]

And yes, the Lord of Light was one of the minor plots that I was most interested in. It's a shame they gave it short shrift.