[Veratyr]

I don't mean to offend but I suspect it's because people in the USA, at least in cities, just can't take care of public places.

There's urine in the train stations (either visible or smellable), elevators shut down by faeces, people shouting, yelling and preaching in the streets, also, toilets, often even in private restaurants, are disgusting.

I don't mean to say that things are always like this, all the time or in all cities and I understand that it's a minority of people who cause these problems but the problems are far from uncommon.

With a place like a public bath in particular, cleanliness is extremely important and I just can't see it working. It only takes one inconsiderate person relieving them self in the water to ruin it for everyone and I find it hard to believe that in a day in an average US city you wouldn't find such a person. My impression is that it works in Japan because the society is extremely communal and you're far, far less likely to find such an inconsiderate person.

I can kind of see it working in smaller US communities where people know and respect each other though. In small communities, everyone knows each other and people are much less likely to be inconsiderate towards friends and acquaintances than they are towards strangers.

[eesmith]

A "public bath" isn't the same as a "public place", which has a wide range of meanings. Think of it as "open to the public", similar to how a pub="public house" even though it's privately owned and people can be kicked out.

A public bath has an entrance fee and staff, including cleaning staff.

While a train station doesn't have an entrance fee, even to access the elevator.

The streets are even more "public", in that speech like preaching has very few restraints. But a public bath has no obligation to allow yelling and preaching.

One of the ways people do public baths in the US is to join a gym. Another option is to go to a spa. Those two provide most of the market need for a public bath.

Other cultures also integrate a social experience in the public bath, but that is coupled to historical reasons not related to your objection.

[escapetech]

It's not only in cities. In the USA, public facilities outside of exclusive areas are usually associated with those considered poor and personal failures.

Combined with the resentment that most people have towards subsidizing public facilities and services used by/built for those who need them (even though in the USA, it's a fraction of what's used towards foreign interventions), there's little if any incentive in maintaining, let alone building more public/publicly used places, especially ones that will end up being used exclusively by the people they want nothing do with (who often internalize this open resentment and further contribute to the problem of poor quality public facilities).

[opportune]

I highly doubt the causation goes in this direction. I think it's just a matter of culture. People in the US litter way more than people do in Japan, for example. I agree with the other poster that it's really just a small minority, maybe even less than 1%, of Americans that just ruin public facilities for everyone. But this minority does exist.

You could argue that we are just using coded language for homeless people, which often is more of a combination of mental illness or substance abuse problems and abject poverty. But I think there are plenty of people that ruin public services aside from the homeless. Even as a lifeguard of private pools, I've had to deal with large amounts of litter, abandoned trash, and feces/urine on regular bases.

[autokad]

there are just a lot of people who things the world owes them something and they have no respect for their surroundings / community.

I was waiting for the subway, and this guy leaning against a trash can throws his trash on the ground. If I didnt see things like this nearly every day I would write it off as a one time occurrence.

[escapetech]

Certainly while there are cultural aspects at play, it's impossible to ignore the reality of certain areas in America being cleaner and less littered, and better serviced than other areas, and a large part of that has to do with the money available for people who inhabit and regularly use those spaces/facilities, and the ability to keep away certain demographics in order for the money to continue to be available.

[rayiner]

Do you have any data that would suggest that funding limitations are the problem? Because when it comes to other sorts of public services (schools, transit) we spend more than other countries. To get worse results. I ran the numbers the other day, and for example the NYC MTA spends about twice as much per ride as the London Tube.

[lr4444lr]

This U.S. resident agrees with you. It's a definite downside to our individualist priorities and inability of law enforcement to do much about public nuisances.

[Pulcinella]

There is also a huge emphasis on being a "taxpayer."

"I paid taxes this year, therefor I am entitled to do whatever I want with public property."

It's one of the reasons something like the autobahn can't work in the US. Some Americans just love to drive 20 mph under the speed limit in the left lane because "I'm a taxpayer and this is my road! I can do what I want." A no-speed-limit highway in the US would require one lane per citizen.

[yardie]

Recently, I've seen signs attaching fines to driving in the left lane below the speed limit or not allowing a car to pass. There are still drivers that stay below but I think with the new signs they are becoming a smaller subset. This was in South Florida btw.

[pm90]

Honestly, I've never seen this kind of belligerence. I mean, I understand that the feeling exists that since one paid taxes, one is more entitled to public services than those who don't (and vice versa). But Americans in general seem to be very law-abiding citizens (there are exceptions, as is everywhere).

[dsfyu404ed]

>A no-speed-limit highway in the US would require one lane per citizen.

No, it would just require speeding tickets to be less lucrative than impeding traffic tickets.

[rayvd]

Of all things to spend tax dollars on, public baths seems pretty far down the priority list.

[Camillo]

Public baths in Japan also typically ban guests with tattoos, because tattoos are associated with the Yakuza in Japanese culture, and the presence of Yakuza would make other guests uncomfortable. Imagine doing anything even remotely similar in the US.

OTOH, the US does have public pools. I've never been to one, though, so I have no idea what they are like. If anyone has experiences, please share.

[alistairSH]

Public pools are generally fine. They usually have a small fee to use, so they aren't truly public in the same sense as the local playground. In my area, most pools are county or town operated, with a discount rate for residents and a higher rate for non-residents. Usually, $5-$10/visit for non-residents, which also buys access to the locker room/showers and any gym equipment.

I imagine the public baths in Japan are similar. So, there is an entry fee that funds a small staff to keep the bathhouse in good repair.

Edit - as an aside, I visited Iceland in January. The public baths/pools were amazing. The entry fees were minimal (a few euro, a bit less than entry to a pool in the US). Facilities were all clean and well maintained. But, it's also part of their culture. Like bath-houses in some nations, people go to the pools to hang out and socialize in the evening.

[pm90]

There are many public pools in Austin (some charge a small access fee) and they are wildly popular. e.g. Barton Springs Pool, Hamilton Pool etc.

[ausvisaissues]

Japan has public pools (run by wards) and they are lovely. The only minor complaint is that sometimes they are overrun with old people ;)

[XaspR8d]

> There's urine in the train stations (either visible or smellable), elevators shut down by faeces, people shouting, yelling and preaching in the streets

I'm not reacting to any offense, as I agree the US has these problems. However this also describes very well my time spent in metropolitan Spain, France, and Italy.

[grillvogel]

maybe there's a common thread here...

[pm90]

I'm sure racism also plays into this a lot. So public baths are very common in Korea as well, which is a pretty homogeneous country (similar to Japan).

Like you mention, Urban areas in most of the US tend to be overrun by poor and downtrodden and are generally unsanitary. But my personal experience, of having seen gentrification here in Austin, Texas, has been that Urban areas in America are maintained well when those areas are out of the reach of said poor and downtrodden. e.g. in Austin, the downtown region is infested with homeless people and panhandlers, whereas the new development in north austin (called the Domain) is much much cleaner. So I don't think Americans in general are prone to littering or keeping urban areas dirty.

[dsfyu404ed]

> There's urine in the train stations (either visible or smellable), elevators shut down by faeces, people shouting, yelling and preaching in the streets, also, toilets, often even in private restaurants, are disgusting.

This is a very SF-centric view of the US.

The closest I've come to this in Boston is seeing people sleeping on subway benches.

>I can kind of see it working in smaller US communities Communities that small do not need laundromats. Cities and suburbs have done a very good job making themselves so impersonal that you don't really get that level of community except in actual "small" towns.

[iamatworknow]

>This is a very SF-centric view of the US.

Not really. Every major American (and in my experience, Canadian, though it is slightly better up there) city has this to varying degrees.

[booleandilemma]

I thought it described NYC quite accurately.

Take a tour of the subway and you'll agree.

Urine, feces, and homeless people, oftentimes who are mentally disturbed, are part of my commute.

[zxcmx]

It is also partly because we are less inclined to lock up, beat or detain people who violate social norms in western countries anymore.

Neither do we socially support those properly, turns out running mental health and substance abuse support is difficult, politically charged, full of potential for liability, thankless and expensive.

I have older relatives who were involved in the mental health system in the 50's and 60's, it was, to put it mildly, not a particularly humane time but "it sure got crazies off the streets".

On a related note, in .jp the police can detain you for about a month without charging you.

[ausvisaissues]

Japan has a backwards view of mental health, and one of the highest suicide rates in the world.

Yet public places are immaculately clean.

The fact is that western people and law enforcement tolerate vandalism, littering and antisocial behaviour.

Recently, on Seattle's airport train, I saw a person openly taking garbage out of their bag and throwing it on the floor. No one said anything - just another day on the dirty train.

I don't think someone would dare do that in Japan or Singapore.

[dba7dba]

US has had a good grasp on mental health and it's not stigmatized as much as it is in Japan.

But guess what, US has highest death rate from illegal/dangerous drugs, which to me is almost like suicide.

[erikpukinskis]

"Americans are more likely to pee in the pool than Japanese"... I would love to see that study! I have my own racist hypothesis about the outcome, but yours seems quite rational to me too.

[greggman]

Agreed but this isn't just a USA thing. Many countries have a culture not taking care of public places. All of Europe comes to mind. As does China.

[skrebbel]

As a Dutch chauvinist, I beg to differ. We generally take excellent care of public places. This is a combo of culture and government services actually cleaning stuff up every once in a while. Of course, this is HN, so cue some replies about horrible stinky places in the Netherlands, but as a general rule I stand by this. SF is a pile of poo compared to an average Dutch city.

And then I haven't even mentioned Luxembourg. That entire country is so clean and tidy that it almost looks like a cartoon.

[cr1895]

>We generally take excellent care of public places. This is a combo of culture and government services actually cleaning stuff up every once in a while.

Ok, I've gotta take issue with this.

Dutch people litter. All the time. People rarely seem to clean up after their dogs. People place their trash bags out on the curb (where there aren't underground bins) far earlier than they should, resulting in trash-strewn streets and fat, obnoxious seagulls. It's a mess. Beer cans left on bridges and park benches. Energy drink cans tossed to the side. Cigarette butts strewn carelessly. Firework refuse absolutely fucking everywhere a few weeks either side of New Years. Bikes left as litter.

There's always someone who comes along with a street vacuum, or a team of people going along with bags and pickers. It seems to me that people have little respect for not littering because it's always someone else's problem, and there's always going to be someone cleaning up after you.

So if by "we" take care of public spaces you mean "lots of people get paid to clean up others' carelessness," sure, but in six years I've seen little to suggest that not leaving trash just anywhere is strong tenent of Dutch culture.

My hunch is that urban areas of the NL are essentially all developed and man-made, in that every street, sidewalk, tree, bush, patch of grass is planned and raw, untouched nature is relatively less accessible and visible. Therefore people perceive this urban "fabrication" with its attendant cleaning staff as less precious, less worth keeping clean than some primeval forest or national park.

I could be wrong, of course, and this is all just my own perception. But I really fail to recognize the cultural cleanliness that you say embodies the Dutch.

[stoolpigeon]

Last time I was in Amsterdam the people who clean up the metro stations were on strike. I didn't know this and I was thinking, "Wow! I really expected things to be cleaner than this." It was quite a mess the whole week I was there. That said, away from the stations things seemed very well kept.

[DrScump]

  SF is a pile of poo compared to an average Dutch city.

SF is a pile of poo compared to an average American city, too.

[skrebbel]

Ah right, thanks. I didn't know that :)

[pbarnes_1]

It's not true, though. SF is pretty much average in this regard.

Americans in general just don't seem to care about public spaces, pretty much anywhere in the country. I've travelled to many US cities and the only reason other cities some how feel "cleaner" is because there's literally nobody walking in them.

The cities made for walking (like NYC and maybe Boston) are on par with SF. Maybe less dog poo everywhere though.

[ihaveajob]

This reminds me of my earlier experiences walking around LA. My natural instinct looking at the state of disarray in some of the streets was that I was on the wrong side of town, because where I come from (Granada, Spain) that's what you notice when you venture into the slummy areas. In LA, however, you need to readjust your gauge, as this was a fairly safe area, just not well taken care of.

[ABCLAW]

SF has an extreme homelessness problem, smells like urine in upscale pedestrian magnet areas (not just back-alleys) and the residential buildings are poorly maintained to the point it being visually distracting because the land underneath them is so much more valuable than the edifices themselves.

NYC is better, but still fairly grungy. Boston is substantially better along these metrics. Montreal and Quebec city, two of the oldest and, by dint of age, pedestrian-friendly cities on the continent, are leagues ahead of SF as well in this respect.

SF is great. Love the vibe. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking it is clean.

[MrBuddyCasino]

Or all of Switzerland. In Germany, it depends - Berlin is, well, Berlin. But Munich is immaculate.

[erikpukinskis]

In my experience SF is the worst smelling city in the U.S. Compare it to Europe's worst smelling places, not the best ones.

[Veratyr]

There are other places yes but out of the countries I've visited, the US is definitely one of the worst. All the Europe I've visited (Paris, Berlin, Zurich, Istanbul, south-eastern region of Russia) has been about as well kept as Australia, my home country. Aside from Malaysia, I can't think of a country that's worse than the US. Even the (disclaimer: nicer, less impoverished) parts of Mexico I've visited were arguably better maintained.

Another disclaimer: I live in the Bay Area and that's where most (but not all) of my feelings about US public spaces come from.

[sidlls]

The Bay Area is bad even by American standards. But the places I've been in America do tend to be rather shabby in comparison to places I've visited abroad, in general.

[mschuster91]

> Berlin

Lol what? In Berlin you see heaps of trash, broken furniture and fridges on the sidewalks once you leave the main roads. The city stinks in the summer (guess this is due to not enough water in the sewage). In Neukölln (and other parts of the city) you gotta take care of druggies everywhere. Parts of the city have a severe neonazi problem (left-wing and "foreign looking" people are getting beaten up, and their cars torched). Rents are skyrocketing and the government doesn't care much except to fight those who protest against gentrification.

I don't get the Berlin hype. Really not.

[yequalsx]

I lived in Kruezburg and agree with you. As the Peter Fox song says, Kotze am Kotti.

[ausvisaissues]

IMHO, Paris is fairly dirty (like 60% San Francisco dirty). Especially the subway is a mess, and there is no law enforcement (e.g. minor children begging during weekday and no-one does anything). Many of the trains are vandalized.

St. Petersburg is much nicer than Paris (at least in the summer). Surprisingly, the it is cleaner even though the country is poorer.

[dtech]

It might be the large US population of homeless people worsens this (especially in the bay area), as they have no better option than to leave their waste in public places.

[fundabulousrIII]

Years ago I travelled through norcal without stopping in to SF. Started in Crescent City, traversed into Oregon, past Shasta region and the farthest south I achieved was to Santa Rosa. Headed east to Oroville and then back to Crescent City to catch my prop flight to SF for the flight east.

Wonderful personal trip on the winding mountain roads and experiencing the abrupt climate|vista changes in an hour+ from pacific coast to desert. Morning 50 degrees, afternoon 80+.

It was my first time in norcal and the thing that shocked me the most (reading my emails to friends from that time) was the filth, poverty and mental illness in the towns and cities.

[thrownblown]

That's not really California. That's Hela Nor-cal, or the Jefferson State.

[fundabulousrIII]

Explain please, I'm an easterner. (edit) I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_(proposed_Pacific_st...

[Symbiote]

That's still the US's problem to fix though. Other countries provide public toilets.

With a quick search, I can only find maps for the London Underground and Britain generally:

[1] http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf

[2] https://greatbritishpublictoiletmap.rca.ac.uk/ (many semi-public also listed)

[legulere]

At least according to Wikipedia, many European countries have a higher homeless rate than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_...

[ihaveajob]

The US is a big place, which averages away the extremes. In San Francisco, population 868k, there are about 10-12k homeless folks (http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-homeless...), which puts it at over 1% homelessness. That's a tragic number for such a wealthy city.

[chongli]

It's only a tragic reflection on the city if you assume all the homeless are born and raised there. How many of those migrated there from colder climates? How many were given a bus ticket by their home city and sent there?

SF spends an absolute fortune on homeless people. That, coupled with its temperate climate, makes it a magnet for many types of homeless people.

[nradov]

In terms of litter, the Dominican Republic is far worse than the USA. Major DR roads are lined with unbroken mounds of trash.

[danans]

Not certain how you can describe all of Europe that way. In my experience, European countries have very good upkeep of public spaces even by higher developed world standards, and especially compared to the US.

[rconti]

I'm not sure about littering/pissing/etc, but as an American, I'm constantly surprised by the amount of graffiti when I go to Europe. It far outstrips what I see here.

As a Californian, of course, they have far fewer homeless people there :)

[dijit]

Europe is a broad stroke.

UK, sure, Sweden.. not so much.

[Symbiote]

Sweden and the UK seem roughly the same to me. The main streets of large cities are perhaps a bit dirtier in England, but the parks in Sweden are far worse when people leave all their trash for the bottle collector (not just the bottles).

[dijit]

As a person who grew up in Britain and now live in Sweden in cities with a comparable population size, I disagree.

London is an exception when it comes to the UK, there is a lot more investment in public services and it's not a true representation of Britain due to its multicultural component.

[laurencerowe]

Sure, London has a level of investment in public services which is unrepresentative of Britain as a whole (though they also pay most of the taxes that fund public services.) But all big cities (and many small ones) are multicultural.

[dijit]

that's a stupid point to make.

London is more multicultural than the rest of Britain.

even if you count the duo-culture the rest of britain has (Pakistani is usually what people refer to when defining "multi-cultural" in the greater context of the UK) then London is still absolutely outclassing everything else by an amazingly wide margin in terms of multi-culturalism.

You could argue the Polish influx has created a tri-culture, but really, I lived in London and my neighbors were Russian, Estonian, Finnish, Canadian, South African, Eritrean, Saudi, Indian, Danish, Italian, Brazillian and there was even a girl from Zimbabwe. Nothing like where I came from.. That's a true multi-culture.

Regardless, as a person having lived in 2 comparable places in different countries I see a huge difference in the way public spaces are treated (to the benefit of Sweden). I don't doubt that the parent has similar experiences as I wasn't saying it's uncommon. But I have this opinion having actual experience. If you do not have similar experience you are not an authority to tell me how things are.

I'm not sure what point you were even trying to make, that Britain has more than just British culture therefore my argument has no ground? :S

[peteretep]

Plenty of public pools in the UK that are in pretty good condition.