[cmahler7]

Something needs to be done about China, they could end the situation in North Korea instantly by stopping trading with them. The fact they don't, combined with their aggression in the South China Sea is telling. Sanctions or tariffs should be placed, there are plenty of 3rd world countries with cheap labor.

[dogma1138]

China doesn't want million of Korean refugees crossing into China.

It doesn't want a true humanitarian disaster on scales rarely seen before in history.

And NK is a good distraction that China can pull out of its pocket anytime its own activists in the area are getting too much scrutiny.

[mcguire]

"It doesn't want a true humanitarian disaster on scales rarely seen before in history."

The entire population of North Korea is about 25 million people. Famine during the "Great Leap Forward" killed somewhere between 15 and 55 million people, while 3-5 million died by violence. You can't make an omelette in China without killing a million people.

China does not want Korean refugees. And North Korea is a dandy client state to have around. But pulling the plug on North Korea wouldn't be a disaster on scales seen in the last century.

[wavefunction]

Seems short-sighted, as in the winding down of the Kim Juche dynasty through a planned-for and managed process seems more attractive to China than those million+ refugees fleeing North Korea en masse because we went back to a shooting war.

In fact there is absolutely no real reason for China not to begin this effort immediately with or without the assistance of partners, given how their leniency has allowed NK to develop ICBMs and the fact they'll face the tidal wave if they fail to act to remove the NK regime. What happens if the fail to prepare and a war between NK/US happens? They're still going to be dealing with the refugees.

The US is not going to suffer a NK that and and does threaten nuclear attack as a foreign policy.

[RobertoG]

Maybe I'm pointing the obvious, but the reason that the idiot in charge in NK want nuclear weapons is in order to avoid the fate of the idiot that was in charge in Iraq.

Probably that war was like an epiphany for the people in charge in NK. And maybe Iran think something in the same lines.

So, maybe he is wrong, or, maybe, that it's the only way that the US will suffer his regime.

[bilbo0s]

"...given how their leniency has allowed NK to develop ICBMs..."

The issue is that North Korea's atomic and missile programs were helped along by Russia. That's where the technical assistance all came from, at least initially. So China, and even the US for that matter, really had no way of stopping that. The Russian involvement is a fact that is generally glossed over by policy makers because there is little you can do to stop Russia.

What's surprising about the Trump belief that China could have stopped Russia, is what it says about Trump's foreign policy acumen. It betrays either Trump's lack of knowledge about the history of the North Korean program, or his naiveté with respect to the extent of China's power.

[lostlogin]

“After listening for 10 minutes, I realized it’s not so easy,” the president told the Journal. “I felt pretty strongly that they had a tremendous power [over] North Korea. ... But it’s not what you would think.” Trump.

https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2017...

[acqq]

You're misinformed. North Korea got atomic bomb tech from Pakistan.

[bilbo0s]

China's position is not about humanitarianism...

their position is about the US and Russia.

This situation happened back in the mid-1950's as well, only difference was that it was Russia that wanted North Korea reigned in. China gave essentially the same response at that time.

[dogma1138]

It's not about being humanitarian, it's about the fact that a large scale humanitarian disaster such as the one that would follow the total collapse of NK would be detrimental to Chinese interests.

On some level China doesn't want NK to collapse for the same reason that the US wouldn't want too see quite a few south and central american countries completely collapse they don't want to deal with the fall out.

If China had a way out with NK that didn't involve 20 odd million starving refugees crossing the Yalu river into China or a huge and likely lengthy presence or a large mass of US troops on it's borders it might have taken it rather than having to babysit the cousin that has to wear a helmet to dinner well past it's novelty.

South Korea also has this problem, it fears unification just as much as it fears a total collapse in both cases they'll get a wave of millions of starving, often poorly educated and for all intents and purposes brainwashed refugees lacking many of the skills needed to survive in the modern South Korean society (look at how long it takes SK to re-educate defectors, with some defectors actually returning to NK because they cannot adapt to life in SK).

[bilbo0s]

What I'm saying is that China's priority is the prospect of a large mass of US, (or Russian), troops on its southern border.

Sure, refugees might be a problem...

but I don't believe you'd be able to find a single government on this planet that would not categorize the presence of large formations of enemy troops, artillery and armor to be a higher priority problem. Especially if those enemy formations are on its border.

So China is worried FAR more about Russian or American troops on its border, than they are about refugees. And those concerns are just military sense.

[dogma1138]

China would lose in either outcome, a more or less "civil" collapse of the NK government and existing infrastructure would result in millions of refugees spilling into China which will cost them billions if not trillions.

It would also tie Chinese forces in the region and force them to deal with the problem nearly exclusively since China is not likely to accept a any international troops on it's border, since it would likely be composed of majority NATO or Indian troops or a healthy mix of both.

[bilbo0s]

"...since it would likely be composed of majority NATO or Indian troops..."

Well NATO troops are not gonna happen right... because the EU is doing its own thing with China.

So we're really only talking US troops, Russian troops or, in your view, Indian troops.

But in the Chinese view, Indian troops and Russian troops are the same thing. Because India and Russia are strong military partners, and have been for a long, long time. So when you consider that the Chinese are close to being surrounded by Russia, I'm pretty sure Indian troops won't happen. (Russian troops are obviously to the north, and the Russians are the chief allies of most of the nations to the West. Including India. So Indian or Russian troops in NK would seal up the Eastern border. This is also a reason that the US would never want large masses of Indian or Russian troops in NK. It essentially gives Russia enormous influence over China, because Russia would surround them militarily. For US policy makers, the idea is for the US to surround China, the worst possible outcome would be for Russia to surround China.)

For all these reasons, and more that I haven't mentioned, both China and the US would be vehemently opposed to any outcome that increased Russia's influence. You characterize such an outcome as "likely", but I'd characterize it as "extremely unlikely".

[Stranger43]

Try to look at it from a Chinese point of view, or try to imagine what the US reaction would be to a few squadrons of Chinese warships patrolling just outside the territorial line in the Mexican gulf on the pretense of protecting Cuba's maritime interests? and try and come up with a scenario where the US is as passive as the Chinese have been.

Then try and remember that the US Navy did spend about a century acting as corporate thugs for a bunch of mostly Japanese cartels doing the unequal treaty period until China re-emerged as a independent state under the communist in the 50ies followed by about 30years of the US pretending that the puppet regime in Taiwan was the rightful rulers of china and today backs the a Japanese government that don't feel japan have anything to be ashamed of in regard to their occupation of Chinese territory.

It's way to easy for someone with a basic western education using only mainstream western news sources to forget that the world looks quite a bit different to everybody else that the west behavior have historically never been consistent with anything the west considered to be core western values and that those behaviors havent been forgotten in the east.

Even more modern examples have demonstrated to the 3rd world that you cannot necessarily trust to US to implement a democratic system even if they gain 110% control over a region either due to incompetence or other motives. I.E. i doubt there is any genuine 3rd world pro-democracy movement that want the kind of help the West have provided in the middle east or Caucasus.

The North Korean conflict have to be seen in the light of the very genuine distrust the Chinese have for not just the US government but also Japan's claim that they actually represent anything related to western values. And you begin to understand why the Chinese cannot really tolerate a reunification under the current week and in the Chinese's government view non-independent South Korean government.

[wbl]

Just abut nothing, tbh. Sure they would put a carrier nearby on notice and maybe step up patrols out of San Diego, but the US is more then capable if winning and doesn't want to give any hothead an excuse to start something.

[lotsofpulp]

China has a fifth of the world's population, they would not be affected by sanctions and tariffs. The power balance is shifting in their favor, and they know they can't be replaced by any other 3rd world country with cheap labor, there is tremendous value from the network effects Chinese production facilities have. The USA effectively has a competitor now, and US politicians can talk all they want, but the fact that they have done nothing so far shows that they can do nothing at all.

[Taniwha]

Yup, and the USA is sitting on its hands rather than actually competing, China is eating it's lunch. Believing in your own superiority doesn't make it so, you actually have to get off your arse.

It would probably help if the US had kept it's once excellent education system, instead the anti-tax know nothings have refused to invest in their future.

Really it's time to tax the rich the way they did in the 50s and make all that infrastructure stuff work again.

Want to make America great again? get Trump and his rentier class to pay their taxes, in the US and fund a smarter next generation

[netsharc]

It's incredible, the Chinese are making windmills and solar panels, exporting them, meanwhile in the USA it's "Coal jerbs!".

[niij]

Yes, China is a bastion of green energy. /s

[someguydave]

I seriously doubt the claim that increasing funding for the US government would lead to making the US economy more competitive with China. Government spending on education has been increasing continually in the US with very little to show for it in the way of results http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-...

[Taniwha]

I'm suggesting that the only real way to "make America Great Again" is to make "American Schools Great Again" - sadly politicians love slogans, but wont spend money on things that wont deliver results a decade or two down the track.

Much like most American companies not looking past the next quarter's results, Americas politicians (an d voters) wont look past the next election

[lostlogin]

Is the suggested funding increase for the American government or for Americans? There are plenty of things that could be done for Americans that would help the economy.

[rorykoehler]

You do know this site is frequented by non Americans too?

[undersuit]

Hopefully the GP knows he isn't speaking for all Americans either.