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by apeace 3256 days ago
Thanks for your reply. I'm a fan of your work and consider myself to be a neutral observer in these debates.

Regarding your first contestation, I think as another commenter said, you are cherry-picking. He explains soft forks well and isn't attempting to mislead. That's why I refer folks to the article.

> This is why at present, Bitcoin Core nodes/wallets loudly warn you that unknown rules may be in effect...

Hearn mentions this mechanism three times in the article. He even discusses the tradeoffs of ignoring this versus rejecting the block. Hardly misleading.

> The soft-fork protocols used for upgrades are specifically designed to ensure nodes are not tricked into believing something is valid when it might actually not be...

He said "essentially tricked", and I think his explanation is clear.

Using segwit as an example, if my understanding is correct, there is an edge case where non-upgraded nodes may try to mine an invalid block, which will consequently be rejected by the majority of the network (assuming the majority is using segwit).

Since segwit transactions look like an "anyone can spend" output, a non-segwit miner could be sent a transaction that spends the output to somewhere it's not supposed to go, and that would be considered invalid by segwit-supporting nodes. Therefore I think it's fair to say non-upgraded nodes are "essentially tricked", and it's a good way to explain the distinction between hard and soft forks.

I don't know as much about replace-by-fee so won't attempt to counter you.

But I will just add that this type of cherry-picking behavior has consistently been coming out of the "Core side", and I have rarely seen strong, clear counter-arguments from that side. Combine that with the very silly censorship stuff on Reddit, and one can understand why Hearn and others have become so frustrated.

Again, I am a fan and a neutral observer. But unless I am looking in the wrong places, the only side being "widely condemned" is the Core side. Perhaps you could point me to the strong, clear counter-arguments from Core? I'll start with the link you posted and check out the rest of your site!

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EDIT: Corrected "reply-by-fee" to "replace-by-fee"

1 comments

> Hearn mentions this mechanism three times in the article. He even discusses the tradeoffs of ignoring this versus rejecting the block. Hardly misleading.

Hearn mentions the nVersion mechanism? Specifically in https://medium.com/@octskyward/on-consensus-and-forks-c6a050... ?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any mention of the word "version"

> He said "essentially tricked", and I think his explanation is clear.

I think you're misunderstanding my point: everything you raised above is negated by the fact that the soft-fork mechanisms we use are designed to give warnings to users and miners who are not running the new(1) protocol. For example, in addition to the nVersion mechanism I mentioned, segwit transactions are intentionally designed to be not standard transactions, and thus non-segwit miners will reject them. This is an important feature to ensure that those miners don't unintentionally create invalid blocks.

1) I say "new" rather than "upgraded" to avoid making the claim that soft-forks are necessarily an upgrade.

Hey, thanks again! Educational to hear your perspective.

After re-reading it, I was absolutely mistaken. Hearn did mention a functionality to alert you when your node detects an invalid block. But he was trying to make the point that this was only possible with hard forks. It looks like the nVersion mechanism you mentioned negates his point.

Glad you mentioned that, you made it very clear to me that he was indeed being misleading there! I will edit my parent comments to indicate that.

For reference, here are the quotes I was referring to (again, his claim is that this is only possible with a hard fork):

> ...you will be alerted in some way, like via SMS or email if you configured that, and you get to decide what to do.

> ...if a user complains that their payment didn’t go through that’s a signal that you’re out of date, even if you forgot to configure your full node to email/SMS/phone you. But if you prefer to take the chance you can always configure your full node to act as if there was a soft fork whilst simultaneously trying to get your attention as best it can.

> ...a hard fork is still better. Firstly, it’s detectable, so a properly configured node can email/SMS/phone you to let you know it’s out of date.

Regarding your second point, you have not convinced me that I misunderstand. However you've been gracious enough to discuss it on HN thus far, so I won't press :) Perhaps point me to a link or start a convo with me through my contact info in my profile?

Thanks again!

EDIT

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Did not realize I could no longer edit my parent comments. Hope everyone who is interested reads all the way down.