[pawy]

Art is not putting up data until it brings up something "cool". It's the expression of mind. Miyazaki has a clear expression about the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfxlgHBaxEU and I'm really deeply sadden that people doesn't get this before hand.

Try expressing feelings and stop using that word that has absolutely nothing to do with machine learning.

The very very very basic Idea of machine learning is at opposite with art.

These things have nothing to do together.

[ejfox]

Art- and in fact, most creative endeavors often DO involve creating many things until you discover something "cool".

With my personal experiments with generative art, I think of the machine almost as a work assistant. I have a rough idea of what I'm going for, and the ways to attempt it, and I teach that to my computer using code. But then I go away from the computer and out into the world and drink coffee, sketch in my notebook, and in the meantime my computerized assistant is back home working on draft after draft of my latest piece of art.

I come home and I see what he's done, and most of it isn't great, but occasionally there is a gem! I look at what he did for that gem and then encourage him to do more of that, and then go back out into the world. I highly disagree that machine learning is the opposite of art.

If you go to any traditional artist's studio you will often find notebooks filled with discarded sketches and ideas. Paintings with color combinations or techniques that weren't ideal. This is almost exactly the same process. And I would argue that process is exactly what art is.

[pawy]

"most creative endeavors often do involve CREATING many things" ; not generating them.

You've "selected" something you liked. You are no artist and should not call your self like that. If you do, you will never inspire "simple" people.

At least if you do it would become the MacDonald of art.

Do nothing, sit and say to the bot if it fits you or not.

You're even worse than a DJ. The DJ actually works his selection and works his transitions.

Sketches have been written out of artist mind. Not by some selection that fits you or not.

Art is work.

[jeeceebees]

By this logic no photographer is an artist either. They just 'selected' a composition they liked. They didn't work to create any of their subjects, just walked up and took a picture.

Slowly coaxing a desired result out of a computer by painstakingly tweaking an algorithm over the course of hours or days doesn't sound like work to you? The computer wouldn't have just done it on its own if an artist didn't tell it what to do.

I think your definition of art is narrow-minded. Who are you to tell someone their work isn't art. Art is (and always has been) in the eye of the beholder.

[pawy]

Alright, that is an argument I give right.

Still, I see the work putted as an art, not only the result.

What I mean is that tools that allow re-generation without someone putting he heart into it would not result in art.

Dropping 200 pics and having a new one is no art.

If you iterate your self on how these mechanics goes on and create something with it with control and skill then that looks more like it.

But then, if you drop out an algorithm that does that, handle it to users,

would their results be art ?

Tools and way are more important than result. How you use them and how you create something original from it is the art process.

I guess it really depends on how you use this.

[sdwisely]

>But then, if you drop out an algorithm that does that, handle it to users, would their results be art ?

in the same respect, did someone not create art in photoshop because they used some fractal noise?

I've had this conversation and thought about it a lot for what I'm doing and come to this conclusion.

art can be directed, it can be accidental, it can be both (every artist loves a happy accident), it can be because of a million iterations whether by hand or computer.

it's up to you, the viewer to decide if you think the end result is good art.

[ejfox]

What is the difference between creation and generation?

What is the difference between me selecting the specific frame made by a generative algorithm and photographer picking a specific moment in time to capture a frame?

What's the difference between me using a generative algorithm and Michelangelo using assistants to paint the Sistine Chapel?

[pawy]

"What is the difference between creation and generation?" -> that one has already been answered under.

"What is the difference between me selecting the specific frame made by a generative algorithm and photographer picking a specific moment in time to capture a frame?" -> he captures life and tries to create a embodiment of something that already has a meaning for everybody. He can have multiple ways of underlining different aspects of the same thing. He has total control over How and Why. It is not only technical but it also communicates something in very different ways depending on the subject and how he took the picture.

"What's the difference between me using a generative algorithm and Michelangelo using assistants to paint the Sistine Chapel?" -> these are people not machine.

[goldfeld]

Art is work, as the parent said. It's in the word, art is human sweat and thought within a certain technique framework (such as an aesthetic).

[TheOtherHobbes]

Creation is a goal that admits occasional accidents.

Generation is a series of unfortunate accidents in search of something that might pass for a goal.

[pawy]

Dedicating our life to find a meaning trough work.

Get interested in some artists and what they have achieved.

A humble human being would never call it self an artist.

That's the first mistake, and it's philosophical rather than technical.

I would say the tool it self is rather an piece of art. Not what it creates.

[ejfox]

I am really curious to hear your responses to the questions I raised

[dougeck]

We think of these models as being ways to extend artistic expression... like guitar pedal or cameras or drum machines. Perhaps ML will give rise to something new and aesthetically interesting in this direction.

[pawy]

You are building a "smarter" arpegiator.

If you really want to build a tool used by producers then it would be required to be a VST in the first place.

But then I really doubt (as an amateur composer) than any artist could get anywhere with this.

How can I transmit my feelings trough a bunch of data i've no control over ?

[kastnerkyle]

You mean something like this? [0] As far as I know from the mailing list, they are always working on more tools for integration so musicians can use them in different environments and different ways.

As an amateur composer as well, I have found uses for these types of models even without plugins / with "data I have no control over" for small flashes of interesting motifs/progressions that I rework, modify, and expand on my own. Inspiration comes in many forms.

[0] https://github.com/tensorflow/magenta-demos/tree/master/ai-j...

[pawy]

Depending on the usage you make, there are some cool applications. But then as you said you rework the material anyway to create your own thing.

At best it can inspire.

edit : thus the title should have been "rearranging sound with machine learning" ; it's not music nor art.

[stevehiehn]

I'm deeply saddened that people think there even is a clear universal definition for the word Art.

[hashmal]

In a way I agree: machine learning should not (try to) replace human art.

However, I think it has its place if it's part of the artistic process. Many artists put the emphasis not on the end product, but on the process itself. We can perfectly imagine an artist creating an entire collection using AI, find something wicked in it and expose it as a criticism of our times. (sounds hipster yeah… I'm not an artist.)

[blacksmith_tb]

I am trying to understand your strong negative reaction as charitably as I can. Would it be fair say that for you because there was no mind (and also no feelings) associated with it, something isn't art? I am not saying I think it's good art, but there are clearly many pieces of art (say found art, or lots of conceptual art) that doesn't involve those - and while I may not like it, but it is generally accepted to be art.

[spot]

"[Art is] the expression of mind."

Right. Now, my mind is full of thoughts and emotions about ML. And I use ML to make some videos that express my thoughts. And you judge my work and say it's not art? Really I profoundly disagree.

Saying something is "not art" is normally a tough argument to make. To say it about a whole category of practice is nearly impossible.