[dalore]

So yeah, giving people what they want actually stops illegal activity, who would have thought.

If they want to stop people doing illegal drugs the answer is quite simple, make them legal. Then we can't do illegal drugs, since they are legal.

[nihonde]

I live in Japan, where illegal drugs and their halo of crime are not really relevant in any way to normal daily life. I'm not a crusader against recreational drug use, but I reject the hypothesis that legalization is the only path to eliminating the criminal drug industry. Here, stiff penalties and social disapproval, combined with a unique cooperation between (well) organized crime and capable, uncorrupted authorities work well.

[toyg]

Bit of a laugh about "uncorrupted authorities" (the Japanese political system is many things but hardly uncorrupted), but the uniqueness of Japanese crime structure is real. However, that structure relies on another addiction that is basically as powerful as drugs, completely legal, and relatively well-accepted by society: pachinko.

To me, it looks like any society with some form of inequality will inevitably need a way for the lower classes to escape their daily struggles. In some countries it's hardcore religion; in some it's drugs; in some it's alcohol; in some it's mindless gambling... Affinity for one or the other depends on a number of factors, but eventually we have to accept at least one of them if we want to keep society stable in the long run.

[nihonde]

Well, yes I have to agree about pachinko. I was thinking more in terms of law enforcement and organized crime having a common cause in keeping foreign criminal syndicates out of Japan. Say what you will about the integrity of that arrangement, but I will never once walk the streets of Kyoto or Nagoya or just about anywhere else in Japan and worry about being caught in some crossfire, being mugged by a junkie, or being shaken down by a cop. On the other hand, I know that legitimate businesses pay protection money and I can see a yakuza HQ office from my penthouse apartment. All of that is a far cry from the insane, desperate chaos that I left behind on the streets of America.

[krapp]

>. I was thinking more in terms of law enforcement and organized crime having a common cause in keeping foreign criminal syndicates out of Japan.

But let's be honest, the yakuza want to keep foreign criminal syndicates out of Japan because they want a monopoly on organized crime in Japan, not because they want to keep the Japanese people safe from foreign criminals. The yakuza deal in extortion, blackmail, drugs, guns, prostitution, human trafficking, all of the same criminal activity any other syndicate does. They may not be as openly violent as other mafias, but they're not nice people.

Claiming they have a "common cause" with the police is to assume that the police have no issue with crime in Japan so long as it's Japanese committing those crimes, which I think cannot be true, and would be a sign of dereliction of duty if it were. From what I understand the yakuza are losing power in Japan because the police have been effectively cracking down on them... they're not comrades in arms.

[nihonde]

Japan's organized crime is still the biggest and best organized in the world.

They very clearly play a role in keeping petty criminals from China, Korea, and South Asia off the streets of Japan, and it's no secret that the keisatsukan will turn a blind eye when the public interest is served. It's hard to overstate the tranquility of Japan in terms of crime. Yes, there is a rather open underworld of prostitution and that presumably includes human trafficking. But I've met gaijin girls in my language classes here who work as hostesses, and they clearly felt like they escaped from places like Indonesia and Philippines, and even in the seedy underworld here they had more opportunities than where they came from. (Anecdotal to be sure, but also first-hand.)

Also, I know restauranteurs who happily pay protection money and feel like it's a valuable service for them. Go figure.

The truly dirty business of Yakuza is moving heroin abroad--especially into the US--and that just isn't tolerated on the home front.

[krapp]

>But I've met gaijin girls in my language classes here who work as hostesses, and they clearly felt like they escaped from places like Indonesia and Philippines, and even in the seedy underworld here they had more opportunities than where they came from. (Anecdotal to be sure, but also first-hand.)

>Also, I know restauranteurs who happily pay protection money and feel like it's a valuable service for them. Go figure.

Although, one wouldn't expect them to publicly admit otherwise.

[dalore]

I never said it's the only path, just the most logical, easiest and obvious path. People are always going to do drugs. If you don't want them to do illegal drugs, then make them legal. It will eliminate illegal drug use overnight literally.

Then people can get the help they need and be treated as a disease if they are addicted. Stealing etc and all the other crime that comes from addicts are still crimes.

You're kidding yourself if you think Japan doesn't have drugs and crime related to it. I've met many a Japanese who loves a good smoke. It's really hard for them to get good smoke in Japan with all that anti drug control. Does it mean it's stops them wanting it? No?

[nihonde]

You are in a fantasy world if you think Japanese people like "a good smoke". You obviously know absolutely nothing about real life in Japan.

[dalore]

I've said I've met a few. Not that all Japanese people are the same. Are you saying they are all exactly alike?

[Nursie]

Japan has major problems with the abuse of easily available benzodiazepines and other pharmaceuticals, doesn't it?

From what I understand you can just buy flutoprazepam and some other fairly hardcore sedatives, so people abuse those.

[njarboe]

Having the whole USA adopt Japanese culture norms seems about as hard and as likely as the drug war ending.

[nihonde]

Ironically, Japan's current drug policy was largely motivated by post-war American policies imposed on it. Those policies were just implemented in a more serious and effective way.