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by jimmyk 3256 days ago
>being gay is illegal in many places.

Is that true? Or is it the behavior that's illegal?

3 comments

...It's legal to think about murder as long as you don't behave that way. That doesn't mean murder is legal.

Is there a reason for the distinction?

> ...It's legal to think about murder as long as you don't behave that way.

Sort of. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1117 ("conspiracy to commit murder") only requires one person to take action and everyone in the group that did the thinking with them is guilty of a crime. This is in the US, but I would be quite surprised if various other countries did not have similar statutes.

More generally, there are all sorts of laws out there that effectively criminalize thoughtcrime rather than behavior. Of course behavior might be needed for anyone to _discover_ the thoughtcrime.

> Sort of. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1117 ("conspiracy to commit murder") only requires one person to take action and everyone in the group that did the thinking with them is guilty of a crime.

Wrong. It requires all the people to have taken action to communicate their intention to collaborate on the plan, and only one of them to have taken additional action toward acheiving it.

People don't think in groups; thoughts have to manifest as action for people to conspire.

> to communicate their intention to collaborate on the plan

What the law says is "conspire to violate".

If person X and person Y together work out a way for person Y to commit murder and then person Y commits murder, is person X considered as conspiring?

> People don't think in groups

Sure they do. It's called "conversation" or "correspondence". If we had telepathy, we could skip the transcoding to sound or text, but we don't yet, but fundamentally it's the same thing.

> Sure they do. It's called "conversation" or "correspondence"

Conversation is action, not thought.

> If we had telepathy

There's a couple different things (in fiction, naturally) that go by that name; the active analog to oral communication is also action, the sort of passive integration associated (not exclusively, just as an example) many hive-mind collective organisms in sci-fi is thought rather than action, but also not analogous to what goes on between humans.

> Conversation is action, not thought.

I think the distinction here is a pretty dubious one. Consider, as a hypothetical, a situation in which one can actually tell "what someone else is thinking" based on a more advanced form of EEG. Would it still be "thought" as opposed to "conversation" if two people are doing it to each other simultaneously? Why is transcoding in terms of pixels on a monitor different from transcoding as sounds? Is the key difference for you whether the transcoding is active or passive on the part of the thinker of the thought?

Put another way, if we define "thought" as being limited to those things which have no perceptible effect on the world at all, then we run into the separate question about whether this "thought" thing exists in the first place.

I think what you're trying to ask is: Is being labeled gay grounds for imprisonment? Or does one have to be caught in the act of fornicating with a male to be imprisoned? I'm sure it depends on the jurisdiction, but many jurisdictions that have this kind of explicit law usually frowns upon homosexuality so much, that the mere accusation is enough to be damaging.
What I'm asking is more like, if the government microphone in your potted plant hears you coming out as gay to your friends, would that be grounds for criminal punishment?
> Or does one have to be caught in the act of fornicating with a male [...]

I think your definition needs some work.

Can you explain why and how you think these are different?
They're pretty obviously different. One is a characteristic of a person, and one is an action that can be taken by a person.
Sure, if we're being pedantic it's hard to enforce laws against "being" gay so they enforce laws against "acting" gay.

And until those countries figure out mind control it's just going to be oppression of their actions.

Now that we've cleared that up, I still think laws against "acting" gay are wrong (within the same framework that it's legal to "act" heterosexual).

Laws against inherent characteristics seem to me at least to be worse than laws which ban behavior. Conflating the two in order to make some particular law sound worse seems sort of dishonest to me.
Perhaps. But within the context of gay rights it is the government that behaved improperly. Society bundled behaviour and innate characteristics into a single thing. That was wrong, and it is important to highlight that.

Of course in a post homophobic world the distinction is rather irrelevant. It makes no difference to anyone if homosexuality is innate, or just a set of chosen behaviours. Why would it matter either way? But for a while it was necessary to remind people that you don't have any choice about being gay, or about having gay relationships. That claim was a response to homophobia, not something rooted in science of philosophy

There's still plenty of conservative people who believe the being gay is a personal choice, or perhaps something caused by your upbringing/environment, not something you're born with.

Of course, this has as much veracity as the idea that the Earth is flat or that the Sun and planets revolve around it, but there's a lot of people who believe it.

I'm confused by your comment.

>Society bundled behaviour and innate characteristics into a single thing.

It seems like that's what you're doing here:

>...you don't have any choice about being gay, or about having gay relationships.

Being gay does not mean you have to have gay relationships. Having gay relationships is a choice.