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by apostacy 3258 days ago
I think that many of the changes that Mozilla has made to Firefox that people in this thread are complaining about may not have directly driven away a large number of users, but, they indicate a serious problem with decision making within Mozilla.

It is clear that the only reason many changes were made, and features removed, was solely because Chrome did it. And Google has very different motivations and goals than Mozilla. Google wants to make money, and use Chrome as a pillar in their platform. So, by emulating Chrome so closely, not just does it indicate that the developers are making bad decisions, it also means that the browser will not be as good.

EXAMPLE: They proposed removing FTP support from Firefox, and the justification was just a link to an announcement that Chrome was doing it. [1] It makes sense for Chrome to do it from a business perspective, but it does not make sense for Firefox.

Or, better yet, I remember that there was talk of having Chrome switch back to using a native pdf renderer back from the javascript one. This sacrifices portability and arguably security for speed.

Or sometimes there are design decisions in Chrome that are outright hostile to the user, to help Google's partners, such as removing the "save as" option for html5 video. It is only a matter of time until Firefox makes it harder to download video, solely because Chrome is doing it. When Google does this, I at least understand that their sabotaging this functionality is part of their larger strategy. Mozilla doing it is just baffling.

I mean, the original Firebird went in the opposite direction as Internet Explorer 6. If Mozilla had the same culture back then, they would have put all of their resources into making an inferior clone of Internet Explorer.

Internet Explorer was a better user experience in a lot of ways, especially for the first few years. But people started moving to Firefox because it was worth it. The security, control, and flexibility was worth it. I specifically remember turning people onto Firefox because they were sick of ads, and there were special add-ons that they wanted.

If Mozilla wants Firefox to work, it needs to do what Chrome wont let you do. It needs to integrate aggressive ad-blocking. Let you have control over the content you view. I think that people would happily use Firefox if it empowered them.

1: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1174462

4 comments

I think you misundertood the justification of the "remove FTP" bug.

That bug was filed by the person who wrote most of the FTP implementation in Firefox and was one of the few people who maintained it. The reasons to consider removal were that it was a maintenance burden, extra security attack surface, and not really relevant to users nowadays. The posted link only spoke to that last point: that other widely used browsers were removing it and it wasn't being a problem for their users, apparently.

The first two reasons for removal were not clearly explained in the bug report initially, because they were obvious to both the bug filer and his intended audience: the networking module owners and peers.

See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1174462#c23 for more details.

Would the summary being "consider removing FTP support" more accurately reflect intent? Probably. Did the actual engineers involved know what the bug was about? Yes.

> Or, better yet, I remember that there was talk of having Chrome switch back to using a native pdf renderer back from the javascript one.

I assume you mean Firefox? Speed was part of that discussion, but so were the various features pdf.js lacks but the proposed replacement supports.

> It is only a matter of time until Firefox makes it harder to download video, solely because Chrome is doing it.

If you assume that Mozilla is just aping Google. But if, on the other hand, you just have that as a preconceived notion and try to make all decisions fit that theory no matter what the actual reasons for them are... then you might just guess wrong on this.

I agree with you on the broad point that Firefox needs to do things Chrome can't or won't do. The worry with your "aggressive ad-blocking" suggestion (much as I would like that personally!) is that a likely outcome is a large enough number of sites blocking Firefox altogether that users stop being able to use it at all for normal browsing. If Firefox had a monopoly position in the market it _might_ be able to get away with that sort of move, but it doesn't have that position.

> I agree with you on the broad point that Firefox needs to do things Chrome can't or won't do.

Actually the point was that mozilla should stop removing features that are not in chrome first, if there are any left. The point is firefox should differentiate from chrome instead of being more and more similar because being similar to chrome just remove the appeal firefox had.

> If Firefox had a monopoly position in the market it _might_ be able to get away with that sort of move, but it doesn't have that position.

But when they had the better share of the market they were adamant not to do any adblocking and this may be related to the fact that 98% of their revenue came from advertising through google. Then again how would a website block firefox ? Using user-agent ?

> I think that many of the changes that Mozilla has made to Firefox that people in this thread are complaining about may not have directly driven away a large number of users, but, they indicate a serious problem with decision making within Mozilla.

Of course they have, I'm such an individual but I'm responsible for about one to two thousands installations of firefox over the last decade or so. Carefully replacing any sneaky install of bundled chrome each time I faced one, and so on.

It's been 2 or 3 years since I've gradually stopped doing this. I have no reason to keep helping a corp that keeps disappointing and not caring about users, selling an image through marketing (giving power and freedom to users) while doing the opposite in reality (removing power and freedom from users). I've barely made any new firefox installation and stopped replacing sneaky chrome/IE unless expressly asked.

Just with one individual they've lost I'd say about a few hundreds users over 3 years. Although a few hundred users is not even a blip on their radar, I'm not alone in this situation and numbers quickly add up to a significant amount. Though maybe not significant enough for mozilla's devs to care.

The point is, a limited number of individual users played a role (possibly significant) in firefox success, the same people now play a role in its demise. It seems mozilla does not understand this fact despite building a large church of evangelist fanboys.

Either Mozilla is infested by an me-too syndrome or they employ managers who do their current employer (Mozilla) a disservice (and their former employer a service). A big problem anyway.
I wouldn't care for a pdf viewer in the browser. What is the usecase for having this in-build?
Do you mean a native pdf viewer or any pdf viewer including the javascript one? It's very convinient to open pdf:s in the same tab and not having to download a file and open it in an external viewer.
I don't find it convenient at all, given that my native PDF viewer clearly outperforms the in-browser viewers, specially in large PDF files.

Change it to "open in external application" is one of my first changes after a fresh install.

But for small pdfs, the in-browser pdf viewer is typically faster. I use lots of PDFs and while I read most in adobe reader, I still appreciate the in-browser rendering: it's often good enough, and stuff like smooth scrolling and tabbed browsing actually works better, and the UI is less in-your-face. The windows PDF reader has (IMNSHO) ugly fonts, and no upside I can find whatsoever.
Turns out to display the document you have to download the pdf anyway. I had so many issues with this PDF in browser thing reported to me by users... And disabling it can be a hassle with firefox sometimes ignoring the setting or simply not offering the option. I don't know what purpose it is supposed to have but it only gave me more support requests.
Have it updated and sandboxed.
Useful for system without a package manager.