[brucephillips]

> except for obviously violations of core human values which I don't think we would find in Japan

Yes, we would. The Japanese penal system has a presumption of guilt.

[gbog]

That's not core to me. The litigation system is highly cultural, can be a village assembly before the eldest, a full judiciary system as we have in the West, can be based on Roman law or jurisprudence. Presumption of guilt is just another way.

[brucephillips]

If you don't consider the presumption of innocence a core human value, what do you?

[gbog]

You can't shorten it like that. It's a complex litigation system were we westerners, when applying our own interpretation grid, see a presumption of guilt.

For the core human values, a good example is the case of a little girl running dangerously near a well, any human except some psychopath will jump on their feet and save her. Here we all share something that can be qualified as universal.

[brucephillips]

> when applying our own interpretation grid, see a presumption of guilt.

You're arguing that "presumption of guilt" is somehow contextually relative. It's not. If 99% of "trials" result in a conviction, there's an unequivocal presumption of guilt.