[Banthum]

The "scheming" comment is a classic false dichotomy.

There's a big spectrum of behavior towards a political outcome between "opposed with deadly force" and "supportive with deadly force". Most Germans in 1940 wouldn't personally gun down Jews, nor even directly participate in organizing such a thing. But nor did they didn't oppose it with force, or energetically ensure it didn't happen.

Of course most Muslims aren't "scheming" to establish a caliphate, but they wouldn't oppose it the way you or I would.

This is an obvious reality that people just don't like to acknowledge.

[ido]

I live in the 2nd-most Turkish neighborhood of the most Turkish city outside of Turkey (Tempelhof, in Berlin), I think I may have more personal first-hand experience with muslim immigrants than you do.

They are for the vast, overwhelming majorly part, just normal people not unlike natives of the same social class. yes, if you compare the "typical" working class muslim to professional yuppies they come across a lot more conservative but not more so than the local-western working class.

And the muslim professional class (the doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc among them) are similarly not very different in this aspect from the local-western professional yuppies.

I think the discrepancy in perspective is that most yuppies don't otherwise notice the native working class.