[rayiner]

> Ah yes, what's better than trying to shift the blame from the actual people and groups doing this, to individuals, who often don't even know better?

This isn't a situation where you're blaming someone who buys an iPhone for all the pollution Apple creates in making them. Here, the actual person "doing" the pollution is you and me, when we buy a gas-powered car and drive it dozens of miles through suburban gridlock to get to work, or leave the thermostat at 68 on a hot summer day.

And while it might be reasonable to say that an iPhone consumer has no idea what toxic crap is involved in making that seemingly innocuous product, that's absolutely not reasonable when it comes to the products made by Exxon, etc. Everyone "knows better."

[akgerber]

People generally don't buy Exxon's products because they're hydrocarbon aficionados— they buy them because they need to get to work and their kids need to get to school.

And they need cars and gasoline to do those things because American cities and suburbs are usually built around cars as opposed to walking, cycling, and mass transit. While that's not exclusively due to oil and car companies— desires to maintain segregation played a huge part too— they certainly played a huge part in ensuring American society was built in a way that ensured demand for their products.

[rayiner]

Isolated anecdotes aside, oil companies had very little to do with how American cities are designed.

[justforFranz]

Oil companies had conducted research into global warming decades before the public had become aware of it. And they did nothing.

[stevedt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

Auto, tire and oil companies had an affect in some places.

[rayiner]

The poster I was replying to didn't say these companies merely "had an affect in some places." He suggested that they were the dominant reason for and "played a huge part" in how American cities were designed. Then handful of examples you point to do not suggest that these companies even moved the needle in how cities were designed.

[Joe-Z]

> the actual person "doing" the pollution is you and me, when we buy a gas-powered car and drive it dozens of miles through suburban gridlock to get to work, or leave the thermostat at 68 on a hot summer day

These examples demonstrate what lies in the power of the consumer and what doesn't pretty well though. Leaving the thermostat at 68 could be argued to be wasteful for the mere convenience of having it 'nice and cool'. However, I think it's in the hands of politicians to see that the energy powering the A/C unit, comes from more environmentally-friendly sources. Such a solution would certainly be a lot more reliable and sustainable than requiring every citizen to just live with the heat even though everybody knows the cool air of the A/C is just one button press away.

Similarly for your other example of driving through the suburban gridlock. I guess nobody wishes for traffic jams and long commutes through concrete deserts. However, people just use the existing infrastructure. What would be the alternative? Live closer to the city center, which probably results in much higher cost of living. Or not going to the city center every day, which would require having a (compared to most) very flexible job.

These are issues that need to be solved on a political level and not by simply expecting everyone to 'do the right thing' (in this case meaning, to behave more environmentally friendly), while at the same time knowing that this often comes with a financial or quality-of-life cost that most people are not willing to bear.

EDIT: typos

[rayiner]

> Similarly for your other example of driving through the suburban gridlock. I guess nobody wishes for traffic jams and long commutes through concrete deserts. However, people just use the existing infrastructure.

People aren't just using the existing infrastructure. This is what they're choosing to build. In the late 1980s, Loudon County VA (the county next door to where I grew up) was mostly rural. Over the last 30 years I've watched it develop, and guess what? People developed it into a car-dependent sprawl, on purpose, and from scratch. People want their McMansion on an acre of lawn they never use, where they have to drive 15-20 minutes to the nearest grocery store. People want it so much, they get on municipal zoning boards and outlaw building anything else.