[atiw]

So, why is it that even after all the long -hours, all the trash talk about us being "resources" and after all other issues, we "programmers" (I would like to call ourselves "hackers", but whatever) still continue to serve others while taking all this BS. I know why I do it, is because I am an immigrant here, hoping to make my dream project work while working on the side. I am one of the mere 1% or so of american population. (An excuse, but a valid one. I tried making the company work for almost a year, before I realized I would be kicked out if I don't get employed and get a H1B ) But what stops US citizens from putting an end to this BS?? Is that because we "programmers" tend to be people who are always optimistic and hope that things will get better as we go? Are we really that naive to keep working on something, hoping for better conditions, happier days, a bonus or a raise?

Or is it that we are not united enough? Is that it? Are we not networking enough?? (I am guilty, I know).

I mean, I hear of all these stories about inhuman treatments (I'm looking at you EA). And I somehow always go back to work, almost always being thankful it wasn't me. Are we selfish to think that? Why are we thinking it's ok until it happens to us?

How can we make this better, without making a traditional Trade union? I am serious.

I wanna know.

There must be some way we can unite ourselves to get better work conditions for everyone, AND still not hurt our bosses and companies in the process??

Suggestions?

[mattw]

I think that while these extreme cases certainly exist, there are actually a lot of "normal" companies out there. I've worked for three (two small and one big), and while none were my "dream job", none of them treated me unfairly either. I don't understand why developers stay at companies that treat them like trash, particularly the talented ones at places like EA. However, I also don't get the impression that developer abuse is a widespread epidemic or common occurrence. (Or maybe I'm just very fortunate!)

[loewenskind]

The way to fight employer abuse is the same as it's always been: forming a union.

As far as "still not hurt our bosses and companies in the process", you will do exactly that. That money they save by getting you to do the hours of 2 people isn't just laying on the ground. It's going somewhere. So if you want the company to pay you more or hire the amount of people they actually need to let everyone work more reasonable hours then they either have to raise their prices or cut costs somewhere.

[atiw]

Right. I was referring more to the whole "Unions tend to go more towards some sort of combo of blackmail/ bribery".

Or they just end up being controlled by a few union leaders, and then we are serving another middle man (union leader), who is probably only making himself richer in the process.

I have this feeling that usually unions tend to grab attention of more cunning people, who know how to play that system in their favor mostly, thereby hurting both the employer and the employee, in a even more hidden manner.

Of course, I have never been part of one, so this "opinion" of mine about unions is what I formed from hearing about 'em. Correct me if I am wrong.

[loewenskind]

This is certainly the case in some places, but I don't think it's like that everywhere nor has to be. If you don't want unions then the next option is to make the government protect the workers directly, but I don't see that as an option in the US. At least not today.