[root_axis]

Cheap is relative. In the U.S. $90-120k is a common salary for mid to senior level engineers working with trendy technologies all over the country (i.e. a salary within the top 10% of income earners in the U.S.). If you're rocking 25 years of experience in the industry and demanding a salary that's pushing into the $130k-200k range for a non-executive position, you're very likely going to get passed over in favor of a cheaper engineer that can produce similar results but is demanding a significantly smaller, but still excellent salary. The bottom line is, 20 years more experience doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be "20 years" more valuable to the company, especially if the trending tech stacks are all less than a decade old.

[zebraflask]

In any major metropolitan area, $120,000 is barely middle class.

[root_axis]

Whatever you call it, $120,000 puts one within the top 8% of income earners in the U.S., if you can't make that salary work then you only have yourself to blame.

[closeparen]

National statistics are totally irrelevant. The only thing that matters is where you are relative to others in your housing market.

The median income in San Francisco is $78k. The 25th percentile is $141k. To be in the 10%, you need $238k.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-salary-of-the-top-earners...

[UncleMeat]

Barely middle class? That's an insane exaggeration. After taxes you are left with nearly double the median household income. Even if your rent is bonkers expensive, you still have way more money leftover than many people even start with. Barely middle class.

[closeparen]

In a minor metro, middle class generally means comfortably paying the mortgage on a middling single family house in a good school district with a sub-25-minute car commute.

In some major metros, $120k is struggling to pay the rent on an okayish family-sized apartment in a below-average school district with an hour-plus public transit commute, with homeownership maybe creeping into the realm of possibility by making extreme sacrifices to save for 15-20 years for a down payment.

So yes, barely middle class.

[root_axis]

I don't understand this mentality. If you're paying $3600+ in rent and are struggling, then you need to find a cheaper place to live or find a roommate, because you simply cannot afford it.

[closeparen]

Oh, I have plenty of discretionary income for my situation. Maybe a teensy bit more than I would in a place with low housing costs but also low salaries.

But even a sacrifice of 100% of my discretionary income wouldn't put homeownership or childrearing (extra bedroom + good school district or private tuition) within reach. Certainly not both. Maybe I'll get to pick one on this salary if I ever see liquidity on my equity, but really I'm holding out for making a much higher salary in 10-20 years.

It's a fun thing to do with my early 20s. But I understand the presumption that a middle-aged man would not take this salary, as it'd be pretty damn difficult to rent more than a studio. Even the studio is extravagant: several of my peers of similar age have roommates. A family is certainly below middle class if it has to share an apartment with other families.

[root_axis]

> I have plenty of discretionary income for my situation.

Then it sounds like your salary is great.

> But even a sacrifice of 100% of my discretionary income wouldn't put homeownership or childrearing (extra bedroom + good school district or private tuition) within reach.

Middle class doesn't mean you get all that without effort. You have to budget, you have to shop around for the right neighborhood, you may not have the option of spending money on a whim, your partner may need to find a job, but $120,000 is more than enough to buy a great home in a good neighborhood, it just won't be one in the heart of the city.

> Even the studio is extravagant: several of my peers of similar age have roommates

Right ... you're living in an expensive studio apartment in the city, you have to move when you want to start a family unless you're making much more money than a typical senior level engineer.

[nikanj]

Are you familiar with the "Old economy Steve"-memes? Not all places have those magical cheap homes readily available. The US (and Canada/EU) in 2017 are made of two kinds of places: 1) Incredibly expensive housing 2) No jobs.

[root_axis]

Not if you're making a $120,000 salary.

[zebraflask]

Consider the price of bread and milk in NYC or SF, or, you know, housing. Like I said, barely middle class.

[vacri]

The median household income in the US is ~$52k. Unless your definition of 'middle class' is 'top quintile', $120k is not 'barely middle class'.

NYC and SF are also notable outliers, and aren't representative of 'any major metropolitan areas'.

[zebraflask]

I'm detecting some cognitive dissonance on the definition of a major metropolitan area.

[vacri]

How either of us defines major metro areas doesn't matter anyway, because the median household income in NYC is in line with the rest of the country, in the low 50s[1]. San Francisco's is around 65k[2]. If you're earning $120k, you're not "barely middle class", you're "doing well".

[1]https://project.wnyc.org/median-income-nabes/

[2]http://citylab.news21.com/data/types/19/

[saryant]

Dallas, Houston and Atlanta aren't that expensive. They're three of the ten largest metro areas. $120k in those cities is just fine.