[qjdn]

You write

> Castile was a law-abiding citizen, with ... no criminal record

I was wondering whether you could explain your definitions of these two terms, "law-abiding" and "criminal record".

In another window, I have open information from the Minnesota courts system about a case where Castile was convicted of a misdemeanor. It appears to me that this case (which is just one of many, many cases) directly shows your claims to be evidently false. I was hoping you may clear up my confusion. Thanks.

[SwellJoe]

I've gone back and forth on whether to engage with an obvious troll. And, against my better judgment...here we go.

Philando Castile had been pulled over 52 times in 14 years for minor traffic violations.

So, let's talk about that. Black folks have been saying for years, "We are being unfairly targeted in traffic stops." Now we have a case where it is obvious a black man had been unfairly targeted for traffic stops, and people are using that targeting to justify his murder. So, he was treated unfairly by cops for 14 years, and then he was murdered by a cop, and to make white folks feel better about it, they say, "Well, he was no angel. Look at all these times he was stopped for traffic citations."

I'm a white middle-aged man. I travel a lot, all over the country. I've been driving with an expired vehicle registration for nearly a year (mostly because I was out of the state, and not required to re-register until I got back...though I've stretched the bounds of that loophole, and you can be pulled over in many states for having expired registration, even from out of state). I don't have a license plate on the front of my ugly old truck, as required by law in the state where my vehicle is registered. I've probably got other violations going on, too; I'm towing a 34 year old travel trailer. I'm sure it's got something wrong that could be interpreted to be a violation (it passed inspection, but that was nearly two years ago, and a cop that wanted to be an asshole could probably find something questionable). Nonetheless, I don't fear for my life, even with all of these factors.

Finally, in most jurisdictions, a traffic citation is not considered a criminal matter. Having traffic tickets is not a criminal record otherwise we'd all be criminals. I've got a dozen traffic stops and speeding tickets in my past...when I drove a shiny new 350Z, I got stopped a half dozen times in three years.

Having a concealed carry permit in most states means you have passed a criminal background check. Police officers know this. It should make them more relaxed to know they're interacting with someone who has had safety training, gotten a background check, and qualified for a concealed carry permit. In Texas, having a concealed carry permit allows you to bypass security checkpoints and metal detectors at some government buildings.

Regardless of all of that: I don't care if someone has committed crimes. Police cannot execute them. That is not how our justice system works. It is a crime for police officers to execute people, no matter what crimes that person has committed in the past (though, again, it is utter disgusting bullshit to suggest Castile was a criminal). Police officers who cannot keep their cool when interacting with an extremely calm auto driver should not be out there on patrol, putting innocent people at risk. Officers and departments need to be held responsible for putting dangerous, unpredictable, people on the street.

So, fuck off with your shitty demeaning racist trolling. (That's what I really wanted to say, but I figured it'd be better to explain why your trolling is dishonest to people who might not immediately grasp the subtleties of the polite racism you're throwing down.)

[qjdn]

Hi, thank you for responding. I too commented against my better judgement.

I was curious whether you had a working definition of "criminal record". For example, perhaps you reasonably exclude "petty misdemeanors", a category of offenses which is not punishable by jail time in Minnesota; many traffic offenses fall under that category in the state. However, as mentioned, Castile's record goes beyond petty misdemeanors. As part of my research into the topic, I found that the New York Times is not willing to say "no criminal record", presumably because they believe it is false.

"Law-abiding" includes more than just convictions. For example, I was curious whether your definition excluded drug offenses, as the use and possession of cannabis is illegal under federal law in the United States. (Possession of sufficiently large amounts remains a felony in Minnesota as well.)

Instead my clarifying question was called "shitty demeaning racist trolling". Besides being unproductive, I believe your comment violates the site guidelines.

I encourage you to assume good faith in your fellow commenters. I in fact support the criminal punishment of officer Yanez in this case, and my judgement suggests that the outcome of the jury trial is unjust. However, I am strongly opposed to attitudes and comments such as your own, which I feel make sincere discussion of facts impossible. I hope that you come to agree on some of these meta points.

[SwellJoe]

Here's why I view your comment as trolling:

Police are not judge, jury, and executioner. It is misdirection to put the blame on anyone who is murdered by a cop for having crimes in their past. It does not matter. Cops can't just murder anyone they want, even people who have committed crimes.

Every article I've read on the subject says Castile had "minor traffic violations". That was what I've been basing my assertions on. If it's more than minor traffic violations, I don't know about it...but, don't really care, unless the violations showed a history of violence. You're not asserting it is a history of violence, either, so why does it matter to this case, or any other, when an officer loses their cool and murders someone?

The officer clearly had no idea about Castile's past in the video, because they don't even know who he is. They're asking for ID, and then shoot him within seconds of asking. So, no matter how many crimes he did or didn't have, it can't have played any role in the officer's behavior. Again, it does not matter. Cops shouldn't be able to murder people with impunity.

If Castile smoked pot and got caught, I don't blame him for it. Black folks are multiple times more likely to be arrested for drug crimes than white people, even though white people use drugs more. I've smoked pot in places where it was illegal. I've never been busted for it; probably partly because I'm a white middle-class man. I'm not willing to call him a criminal over that.

"Possession of sufficiently large amounts remains a felony in Minnesota as well."

Why mention this? Are you saying Castile had a felony in his past? Or, is this just another way to make vaguely ominous noises about the criminality and dangerousness of a black man who was, by all accounts, a gentle dude just trying to get by? It's the little things like this that make me doubt your sincerity and good intentions in this conversation. You keep making vague noises about, "I've looked at his record and I see many things." Say what you mean. Don't raise the specter of criminality in Castile's past and make scary noises about felonies and the NYT not saying "no criminal record". That feels like the dog-whistle that sites like Breitbart use all the time to demonize people of color.

My point all along in this conversation and others is that a black man is presumed guilty in the US, by police and the white general public. Your comments are proving that point. So what if he smoked weed? Does that mean everyone who's smoked weed deserves to be executed in the street? I mean, I hate Seth Rogan as much as the next guy, but he doesn't deserve to be murdered by a cop. So what if he had some vehicle violations? I've already admitted to enough crimes to be executed under that rule.

I really do try to assume good intent, particularly on HN. But, man, you're making it hard.

If I'm wrong about him having no criminal record say so in plain language. The articles I've read said he had minor traffic violations. Your comment was an intentionally vague, "Well, actually..." and I find that obnoxious and misleading. It looks like a dog-whistle, to me. If it wasn't intended that way, you should try to be more clear in the future.