Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by losvedir 3289 days ago
I was formerly a UBI proponent but I think, at least, in the near to medium term, it's too much of a cultural shift about the role of work in life. That's why these days I'm more a fan of a negative income tax coupled with a repeal of the minimum wage. Consider if the "tax brackets" were something like:

    * 0   - $2k  : -1,000%
    * $2k - 4k   : -500%
    * $4k - 6k   : -100%
    * $6k - $8k  : 0%
    * $8k - $15k : 5%
    * ...
    * $10M+      : 40%
(Something like that, exact numbers to be fiddled with.)

What it essentially does is it provides a government money multiplier on low wage jobs. A company could offer $1/hr jobs, which the employee would perceive as $10/hr. That is, $1/hr = $2k/yr = $20k, after taxes. The negative income tax benefit decreases steadily, until eventually you start paying taxes, but there's always an incentive to work more or get a raise.

Just think of it! At $1/hr there would be a gazillion jobs for things like greeters at every store, crosswalk guards, picking up trash at the park. And people would be motivated to work for them because they're actually making $10/hr.

I think this is more politically palatable than UBI as well, too, since it avoids the issue of "moochers who will just sit around and collect their checks". Since with a NIT, if you don't work, you don't get anything.

I do foresee some issues making this actually feasible. For example, it certainly won't work for the employee to just receive $1/hr and then a big payout on tax day. I think we could adjust "withholding" to actually pay out what the employee will receive as part of their tax benefit, but it will be important to get it right or else they could be hit with a bad tax bill.

4 comments

> I was formerly a UBI proponent but I think, at least, in the near to medium term, it's too much of a cultural shift about the role of work in life. That's why these days I'm more a fan of a negative income tax coupled with a repeal of the minimum wage.

As usually defined, negative income tax (in an otherwise progressive income tax system) is the same as UBI in a progressive income tax system, but possibly with a range of regressive treatment (the simple credit form is isomorphic to UBI, the more common “deduction with proportional refund of unused deduction, usually at a high fraction like 50%”, has the regressiveness feature.

Unless the credited (or refundable proportion of the deduction) amount is greater than the annualized pre-policy-chnage minimum wage, it's also a decrease in the wage+credit income floor for full-time employed workers, so you risk pitting the unemployed against the working poor with this approach. A better approach, IMO, at plausibly-viable initial levels of the credit (effectively, the UBI level) is to index minimum wage to inflation, but reduce it, as an hourly wage (after applying the index) by the amount of the credit, divided by 2000.

(I'd also prefer tying the credit to a defined calculation based on a revenue stream, preferably a capital-income-heavy one, so it doesn't get reduced with automation, with a ratchet to prevent cuts in recessions.)

What you actually describe is progressive system where the bottom marginal rate is a large negative value, which isn't a typical NIT, but sort of like a super-EITC. This provides no benefit to those absolutely displaced from work, but maximum benefit to those employed at a rate which exactly exhausts the negative marginal rate brackets.

What's wrong with moochers collecting cheques? Is there some inherent value to you in there being no moochers out there? Or to put it another way, is it necessary to monetize all valuable interactions and behaviours so that we can reward them with our negative income tax? Is monetisation itself a good thing? Or is it sometimes a bad thing, but a tool, possibly not always appropriate?
I see this as merely a more complicated type of messaging and find the math of it to be... weird.

If I make no money, what stops me and a friend from starting two poem writing companies. He pays me 2k a year to write him a couple poems and I pay him 2k a year to write me a couple poems. Both of us end up making 18k a year profit and neither of us has to work.

It's a silly example, but the point is that not providing UBI to people who don't work... just means you create corruption to provide just enough work to get past the bar. So why bother?

Yes, we do want to incentivize productive behavior but denying UBI won't work and the harder you try to make rules as what qualifies as productive, the more you end up distorting the labor market.

How about caring for your elderly parents? Or a mother looking after 3 children at home? Or cleaning up the common areas on the estate where you live? Are these worthless because they're unpaid?
What you call moochers, I call customers: please don't ignore the value of consumption in a market capitalist system. If I intend to prosper I need to come up with a way to sell those people something, and your 'moochers' might be the only people with time on their hands to investigate value and serve as watchdogs for abuses. Also, they'd have time to learn new things and invent new stuff. Don't underestimate the ingenuity of moochers! People get bored and think up things when they're left just sitting around. Perhaps not all of them, but it's still an important mechanism.
They have "1 Euro jobs" in germany, where people are allowed to work for 1 Euro/hour and keep their welfare benefits.

The moochers in this system are the companies who employ 1 euro-jobbers.