[crusso]

What are elements in this Eternal set? I would posit that the Eternal set is composed of things we don't yet understand or are unnecessary entities.

If you're wanting to look at this as a set problem, let's take the set U as the Universe of everything that we see evidence for and the Occam's razor understanding of things required to precede U.

Now take G as the set that is God - capable of not only creating U, but loving us each individually through some telephathic means, and creating an everlasting existence for each believer in some sort of eternal afterlife.

Belief in U + G requires much more accommodation than just belief in U.

[ricksharp]

Well, I didn't say anything about the quality of set (E), only that it makes sense to consider the possibility of it, especially when there is an apparent contradiction in the (U only) set.

I agree that specific beliefs about the Eternal=God would require much faith since (E) is by definition outside the box (U), and therefore beyond our reach of scientific experimentation.

There might be avenues where (E) could communicate with members of (U), but that is a different discussion. I would recommend as much evidence as possible should be pursued in verifying any specific claims about (E).

---

Going back to your first point, I understand that you are saying that there could exist a set (U+O) = all things that are made and all things that preceded it (Occam's Razor).

So that would make it equivalent to the (U=E) set which I mentioned.

Another words, if something exists in the set of things that are made, it was also made, which was made, recursively.

However, when we consider the Big Bang, then something spontaneously prompted the singleton to transform into an infinite expansion.

From this observation, the only possibilities I see are that either the universe was affected by an external actor (E) or the universe itself is eternal and cyclical and the singleton was a temporary state (Bang-Bang theory).

Logically, I don't see a contradiction in either possibility.

However, I do see an extreme difference in quality:

If (E):

Things in (U) have the possibility of eternal significance and stuff actually matters:

- Love - Relationships - Death - Work - Exploration - Joy - Suffering - Eternal Life is a Possibility

If no (E):

On the other hand, if we are simply existing in a cyclically eternal universe, then absolutely nothing matters. We are simply a dot on an infinite timeline. Our atoms will be scattered across empty dark space in an infinitely expanding universe. All is entropy and darkness. Meaning is an illusion.

If the second is true, we don't act like it and we lock away the people who do.

[crusso]

On the other hand, if we are simply existing in a cyclically eternal universe, then absolutely nothing matters

So the only way that anything matters is if you personally live forever?

[ricksharp]

No, I meant that something I do only matters if it has permanent consequence.

If, no matter what I do, every atom I have ever encountered is doomed to be scattered across empty space, then any effort of my part is without long-term effect.

For example after the sun goes supernova and burns out as the universe accelerates its expansion to nothingness. In that picture, we are nothing but a dot on a quickly passing timeline. (In this case, all meaning is an illusion and purely subjective. Objective meaning doesn't exist.)

On the other hand, if what I do does affect eternity, then my actions matter whether I live forever or not.

(Of course, if living forever is an option, that's even better.)

[crusso]

It really depends on how you define "meaning". Is there meaning to treating a dog with love and respect even though it has no eternal future? How about the kindnesses we do for others - even though they may not notice and they certainly won't recognize us for doing them?

I think we make our own meaning in our every actions - regardless of whether or not those effects last for an eternity... which even with belief in a creator of the universe, there's no reason to believe that physics doesn't rule the universe and that it's not headed for heat death.

One way that I like to think of my permanence in the universe is that there's no reason to believe that every thing we do isn't recorded in time. Sure, our consciousness seems to exist only in the present - but perhaps the existence of our lives isn't totally lost in some form. Perhaps this moment of my typing these thoughts will exist as long as our universe does. Could they be accessed at least in read-only form one day by a future civilization? Maybe.

[ricksharp]

Right, that makes sense.

So that definition of "meaning" would be purely subjective meaning. It's meaning that is self-determined.

In your example, maybe an extra-universal future being might be able to read an echo of our impression on the timeline.

That's dreaming of an idea that might make a hint at a sense of purpose.

But that is what I don't find that fulfilling at all.

What I deeply desire is evidence-based objective meaning, and knowing that you and I and everyone else is truly important and valuable and that the choices we make shape eternal reality.

So that is what I see as the qualititative difference between subjective meaning (meaning purely determined by the subject) and existential meaning (one's existence having an eternal value).

Also, yes the dog would have existential value because it would contribute to the eternal effect. In fact, if there is an Eternal One then love and respect for everything he has designed becomes very important and things made from atoms would carry existential value beyond the physics alone.

As a side note, if there is an Eternal One who cares to be known, then he would have to communicate himself and provide evidence for his existence. (And Yes, I do believe that evidence actually exists and I believe it is very good: it fills my heart with hope and deep meaning as I face the problems of this temporary life.)

Anyway, I appreciate the dialog and I hope it is somehow useful for you.

Thank you for taking the time to think through it with me.