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by timhwang21 3297 days ago
Well, of course. Only companies with fuck-you money can afford the extra bytes spaces take up versus tabs, so it follows logically that they'd pay their developers more.
11 comments

While your comment is obviously meant as a joke, it somehow rings true from my anecdotal experience.

I'd also like to see an analysis of space-vs-tabs as it relates to operating systems. Again, from anecdotal experience, it seems spaces are more common for folks with *nix background who tend to work in product-oriented companies (i.e. where code is an asset) and tabs are more common with windows folks, who tend to work on IT (i.e. where code is liability)

Hmmm...

I've mostly only ever worked in Windows environments with the odd linux machine here and there, but mostly Windows, I've worked in both I.T. and product-oriented shops. I've mostly favored spaces. I've never been questioned it or asked to do differently. Generally speaking, those that care about the money, don't give a fuck about whether I use tabs or spaces. I've worked in tight-ass shops that have nickeled and dimed for every cent savings and I've worked for shops flush with cash to pay developers to do it right.

In my actual experience, I've never seen any relation to tabs vs. spaces with regards to being paid more. Nobody that has ever paid me for what I do has cared about which I use, nor have they questioned it.

One thing I have noticed in programmers are an asset vs. programmers are a liability is that companies who understand that automation is going to extend their profitability by more of a margin than it costs them will pay you what you're worth. Those that view programming as a sunk cost, that just makes their lives easier or cuts costs will pay you what they can get away with.

Don't work for a company that views you as a cost centre. Work for a company that views you as a profit centre. The work will be more meaningful. You will be more fulfilled. You will most likely be less stressed and you will most certainly be appreciated and respected more.

I'd like to add my own anecdote: Windows development primarily happens on one vendor's IDE - Microsoft Visual Studio, and where MS leads, Windows-based developer follow.

Case in point - I use the default Visual Studio settings which are spaces, BUT they weren't always. I remember as recently as 2008 tabs were the default.

Visual Studio 4-6 (1996-2000) the default was tabs
The good years for Microsoft.. feels like there’s a story there :)
Most of the time I've seen people refer to code as a liability, they aren't referring to the 'cost-center' mentality, but rather recognizing code is the liability you incur in order to get the business value [1], and thus you should minimize the code you write per solved business problem.

[1]: https://twitter.com/tastapod/status/726747175317852160

> product-oriented companies (i.e. where code is an asset > IT (i.e. where code is liability

You got it backwards. In companies that sell code, code is an asset. In companies that sell services code is a necessary evil.

I think you misunderstood him/her.

If you're a software developer and you're part of the "IT" department, then you're a liability. Your code is a necessary evil.

If you're not part of the "IT" department, then you're working in a product-oriented environment where the company is selling your code (either as a good or as a service) or otherwise making money from the code. In that case, your code is an asset.

I've always understood it as functionality is an asset and code is a liability. The company wants and uses the functionality to make money. Code has to be maintained, has bugs, etc. Your goal should be to provide the required functionality while reducing the costs incurred by your code.
This is...this is actually brilliant logic.
Windows itself is indented with spaces.
Because the code of Windows is the asset ;)
I use spaces because python.
The eight spaces companies are clearly flying high and the place to be if you're looking for mad bank.
poor ruby devs and their two-space indentation rules.
Dilbert (well, Ashok really) has a few more storage-saving suggestions: http://dilbert.com/strip/1996-08-20
Palapa money
...if you hit ten spaces you might afford a full Palapa forest ;)
You probably mean companies that are loaded or well-funded or stupidly rich. This isn't the same as fuck-you money, which refers to the amount of savings a person would need in order to retire early and thereby bid their employer goodbye. See for example: http://time.com/money/4187538/f-u-money-defined-how-much-cal...
I think that a rational sounding inerpretation can be found: all spaces means python programmer (mixing spaces and tabs messes up the indentation), python rulez, therefore high salary
According to the article, he tried controlling for language and the effect remained.
Spaces over tabs is the default for IntelliJ. Given there are over ten million Java developers who are in very high demand, Python is practically a rounding error.
Also, they controlled for language and the effect was still present.
The only thing they didn't control for is Stack Overflow use.

It's official: science proves that highly paid tab users just don't need it.

Warning, the parent post is sarcastic and should be chuckled at.
your comment seems to imply that the article and all other comments are not... I'm confused now.
The article is serious. But I'm guessing there is either something subtle wrong in the analysis (they even find Go programmers who use spaces earn more, which makes no sense given that 99% of Go programmers use tabs), or it's some kind of weird selection bias, given that it the sample is self-selected.
just because it was not posted on april 1st, it doesnt make the article serious.

they are publishing a very limited, informal, unscientific, survey and having fun drawing outlandish conclusions.

if you think this was serious in any way you may want to bring back pirates to counter global warming.

Well, white-space is removed anyway in compressed production files...
Woooosh...
So you're saying that if I spent 30 minutes learning fmt then I can expect a raise? Sold!
This is one of the funniest comments I've read on here. This deserves more recognition
This is one of the many unconstructive comments
So's your mum.
yeah, just because in 2017 storing source code is the most expensive thing for a company. but really, the storage is almost free nowadays...
Seems unfair to downvote you just for misunderstanding, that was sarcasm friend.
It's pretty much an unwritten rule that a sarcastic joke on the internet with sufficient exposure will get a response by someone who didn't get it. Using /s really kills the fun (and whole point) of using sarcasm so it's a trade off to accept these comments will happen.

I'm impartial to downvoting as to reply literally doesn't usually add to the conversation, which is generally the point of downvoting. Losing karma shouldn't hurt your feelings.

I will don't understand why it's called Poe's Law if he said it in 2005. This phenomenon was well documented on Usenet by the early nineties.
If we called everything that was first described on Usenet as "Usenet's Law" then everything would be Usenet's law, probably even a couple of things in physics.
Poe's Law is when extreme views seem to self-parody. That's different from someone missing the joke on mundane sarcasm.
Could also be that the reply is also an attempt to play the into the joke (kind of like a vaudeville straight man).
Do you mean partial to? As in, you favor downvoting over commenting to point out their mistake? Don't mean to be nitpicky, just genuinely confused if that was a mistake or I'm misunderstanding.
I meant that as I'm indifferent to whether or not they get downvoted but I see there could be a justification for doing so.
Yeah but we are human. Most people's feeling probably are hurt when their [non-malicious] comments are downvoted. But besides that I mostly agree with what you wrote.
Yeah, I guess. If the person didn't catch the sarcasm they probably won't catch why they are being downvoted, at least 1 person has to tell them.
I strongly think \s should be enforced in every post in HN.\s
For portability you should use /s, not \s. \s only works on Windows.
You should have escaped the tag, like this \\s. Your second tag closed, forcing people to take your post seriously.
Killed the fun with the second one.
I can't debate sarcasm.
I'm confused. Do you mean that we're allowed to create posts on Hacker News that are not sarcastic? I thought there was a rule, with a powerful AI enforcing it, stating that all posts had to be sarcastic. (Warning, this post is sarcastic and not meant to be taken literally.)
I've grown so tired of sarcasm. Online and in real life people are often saying the exact opposite of what they mean. We have to pick up the sarcasam to truly understand.
The real issue with sarcasm is that it actually places the burden of subtleness on the speaker, whereas people will usually blame the listener for not understanding. If the tone and wording isn't just about perfect, then it's obviously easy to miss sarcasm, let alone the humorous intent. And that is sometimes very hard in writing, hence the "/s" which ruins the fun for everybody. Likewise if the listener isn't educated about the object of sarcasm, little can s/he get the irony of the statement... I think missed sarcasm has more to do with failed cultural fit than fault of anyone involved. Which is probably why it's much more common and accepted within social circles than in general discussion. HN clearly fits the former, though; sarcasm is just about yet another norm here!
> HN clearly fits the former, though; sarcasm is just about yet another norm here!

Agreed, this is why I didn't want to take a hard position on downvoting someone for missing the sarcasm. We're in a public forum which crosses cultural boundaries. I see the argument for both sides.

Although I lean more towards downvoting as the majority of people on HN will get the joke and it's an opportunity to learn for those unfamiliar with the mainstream culture.

sarcasm is one of the true idiosyncrasies of humanity that differentiates us from the machines. Embrace it.
Right up until we can type "include('sarcasm')" and have it work.