[GolDDranks]

Is it only me or aren't these wages crazy high for people with only 0-2 years of experience?

I started as a fresh software engineer in Tokyo this year, and I'm making around $37k a year. I think that newbies earn about that much in Helsinki, Finland, too, where I'm originally from.

[mi100hael]

California is financial fairy tale land in every way. Wages, taxes, real estate, and cost of living are all crazy high.

[GolDDranks]

How strong financial "gradients" there are around the Bay area? Do people try to come up with all kinds of remote work scenarios etc. to be able to earn the same wages without having to pay for living there?

How do people who are not software engineers, manage? Are all wages high?

[niftich]

> How do people who are not software engineers, manage?

With great difficulty [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8].

[1] http://www.newgeography.com/content/005501-the-demographics-... [2] https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/11/03/east-palo-alt... [3] http://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valleys-prosperity-pa... [4] http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2015/03/opinion/ctl-child-pov... [5] https://newrepublic.com/article/124476/dispossessed-land-dre... [6] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/the-pla... [7] https://www.thenation.com/article/bridging-silicon-valleys-w... [8] http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/25/news/economy/middle-class-si...

[rconti]

Not really. Some people take their bay area salary and swing it into remote work somewhere else. But most of us like it here and have no desire to move. High cost of living = higher pay. High housing costs = higher expected appreciation. And most people just pay the piper and deal with it. It doesn't seem particularly difficult to afford living here, versus anywhere else I've been. It's just a different world. My sister owned a house in Rochester for 5 years, and when they sold it, they were worried about being able to get the money they paid for it, let alone pay the agent. A roof costs 20% the purchase price. All of a sudden renting looks more attractive. This is not to say you're guaranteed to make money on real estate in SF or Boston or wherever, just that it's a different game, and you can't bring all of your old assumptions into it.

Whether you're in SF or the middle of Wyoming, how many people really optimize for retirement? The software engineer in SF might treat herself to a nicer car after a few years of good raises. The rancher in Wyoming might buy a newer side-by-side for hunting trips after having a few good years. Almost nobody goes full Mr Money Moustache and restricts their spending as much as possible in order to retire as soon as possible. Most people spend most of the money they make and make a vague plan to retire somewhere around 65. So if you're going to spend a decent chunk of what you make, why not do it in the Valley versus anywhere else?

If you're looking to get out as soon as possible, ABSOLUTELY get an SF salary, move to Wyoming, and live in a trailer. Or, better yet, a foreign country with an even lower cost of living.

For the rest of us, we have hobbies, families, interests outside of work, and uprooting all of it to move to Wyoming to save some money is just as unthinkable as cutting all hobbies and travel and dining out expenses just to sit on the couch every night.

[mi100hael]

This comment is hilariously "Bay Area."

> The rancher in Wyoming might buy a newer side-by-side for hunting trips after having a few good years.

Right, because everyone outside the Bay Area lives in a double-wide.

> Most people spend most of the money they make and make a vague plan to retire somewhere around 65. So if you're going to spend a decent chunk of what you make, why not do it in the Valley versus anywhere else?

This is a ludicrous strawman. Most employees in technical fields in average American cities have the means to make a concrete retirement plan, build an emergency fund, and live debt-free without going full-Mustache. My first year out of college, I was spending maybe 20% of my income on a 700sqft 1BR apartment with off-street parking in a walkable, safe neighborhood in a clean, well-educated midwestern city. Now I spend 20% of my income on a short, low-rate mortgage that would be several million dollars in the Bay Area.

> For the rest of us, we have hobbies, families, interests outside of work, and uprooting all of it to move to Wyoming to save some money is just as unthinkable as cutting all hobbies and travel and dining out expenses just to sit on the couch every night.

For the rest of us outside the Bay Area, we too have hobbies, families, the option of financial security, and moving to the Bay Area for nice weather and snobs who think the rest of the country lives in trailer parks is just as unthinkable as whatever else it is you think we do in the rest of the country.

[Washuu]

In less technology oriented areas of the USA making $35,000 to $40,000 as a fresh graduate is pretty reasonable. That was my experience along with others in the rural area I grew up around. The only way to really break past that was to be willing to move to a new area.

[nloa]

Thanks, reading this gives me a better feeling about my 40k salary in Germany. Reading about 120k+ somewhere else is weird.

[Washuu]

To put it in more perspective I moved to a place with a similar cost of living, but more technology oriented/in demand. This had the effect of doubling my salary.

[stevenwoo]

I worked at the North American branch of a Japanese game company about ten years ago, so adjust salaries accordingly. The senior Japanese programmers made about ~45K in Japan and got a cost of living adjustment to ~75K plus company housing and transportation when the programmers started a temporary stint in the North American office. I had a little less experience than these guys but made about 50% more because that was about average for USA programmers.

[KaoruAoiShiho]

No, even valley engs are ridiculously underpaid compared to the value they generate. Software, and IP work in general, are greatly scalable. It's sad how capitalists can convince workers that 37k is a reasonable salary lol.

[mattnewton]

It's just the Bay Area. Coming from the Bay Area these numbers match experience, maybe even a little low.

[drewrv]

Many people attending bootcamps have prior programming experience.