[lawn]

I don't do a lot of web development and I hated php too a year or so ago.

But it's actually not so bad if you just want some things done and for me I actually started to enjoy sporadic encounters with it. I switched from my own hacked soup to kohana and I found jquery and them alone made it much better.

And I think you're missing context a little, I think javascript is a wonderful language and you can do a lot of "real coding" with it. I guess you mean this stereotypical, boring, web development which I agree is extremely loathsome.

[gte910h]

I think javascript is fine when you don't actually have to support a dozen different browsers. But for most use cases, you have way to much cross platform support to worry about, and that's no fun.

Php is fine when there is less than 100 lines of it or so in your project. It just gets unfun fast as the LOC goes up.

[lawn]

With jquery I haven't had any cross platform issues, I'm curios what you're doing that makes it all so broken?

And I think it's really fun to work in kohana especially when you're just jumping around in the core which is surprisingly well written with it's thousands of lines.

So I must ask, is it really the language that's the problem when the project gets unfun at the 100 line mark or is it your attitude or aptitude that's getting in the way? Hell, my .conkyrc file (a config for a small monitoring app) I've just written is more than 100 lines!