[calcnerd256]

I'm not talking about how we build them. I'm talking about what they are, and what they are is as they would be whether they were built by humans or computers or nature. That the theorems follow from their axioms is not a human invention, nor could it be. There is a difference between discovering something and inventing it. Man could not invent mathematics any more than man could invent electricity. When I say physics exists, I mean that the physical world exists and follows rules. If we discover those rules, it does not mean we have invented them.

[asdflkj]

You're "not talking about how we build them", but you were responding to my post where I am talking about how we build them. I'm gonna say it again: I don't understand this tendency to shift attention away from the "how"--rather insistently, in your case.

[calcnerd256]

Either you're not just talking about how we build them or I misunderstand you, because the first thing you said was, "Mathematics is a product of the mind."