[easilyBored]

For the record: I don't think that Mid-East is ready for democracy yet (the majority wouldn't support basic human rights IMO) so the biggest mistake was for the "West" to support the Arab Spring. Yeah, those dictators were bad, but they were predictably bad.

Nature abhors vacuum and radical Islam is filling in.

P.S. I don't care about down votes.

[dang]

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14410329 and marked it off-topic.

[mattfrasernz]

Iran had democracy in 1953. The democratically elected prime minister was overthrown in a coup that was orchestrated by the CIA in order to protect the profits of BP. This isn't a conspiracy, this information has since been declassified. Look it up on Wikipedia. If there's any truth to your statement that the middle east "can't handle democracy" it's in no small part due to our interference.

[MR4D]

I think there is a finer point to be made here.

For instance, the CIA couldn't care less about BP. Now, MI6 surely did. Rather, the CIA influenced action against Mossadegh because it thought he was a Communist.

Whether MI5 convinced the CIA that he was a communist threat is the more critical question. Some have thought that MI5 simply convinced the CIA of such a story to take out their own bogeyman while keeping their hands clean. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Of course, whether or not he actually was one is less notable than his association and support for those who were, as well as his nationalization of the oilfields (technically not the nationalization of BP, but close enough).

[easilyBored]

Name one Mid-east democracy right now that "we" would want to live in /where basic human rights are protected 1

1. Minus Israel....not that it fits my description.

[losteric]

So what?

1764 America was a subjugated colony of a monarch, I'd hate to live there. 1863 America was embroiled in Civil War, I'd hate to live there. 2017 America? Democratic global superpower, lots of room for improvement but I still love living here.

What about Germany? 1944 Germany was a fascist racist shithole. 2017 Germany is one of the leaders of the free world.

We don't control the past... shit happened, get over it. We learn, mature, and build the future.

[ta_qwerty]

The time will come when Westerners stop pretending Democracy is more important than a roof over your head and food on the table. All the praise in the world for North America and Western Europe for managing do develop with democratic governments, but China, Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore and others are there to show that prosperity reaches a broader definition than liberal democracy. Developing countries need growth, not ballots.

From someone who would be really happy with a Pinochet-style dictatorship instead of their current gov

[easilyBored]

The saying is "A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch"

By democracy I mean a system where basic human rights are protected and cannot be voted out. Would most Saudis, in a fair vote, allow for Catholic Churches to be open here? If the answer is no (and I think it is) then democracy is bad. Same for women rights, criticizing their faith, gay rights etc.

[orf]

Given the current US climate I think a public vote about mosques being allowed might well fail.

Gay rights in the USA is a fairly recent thing in the scheme of things, and it's still not evenly distributed or enforced across states.

And if you think you can get into any public office in a large number of states if you criticize Christianity or even support a women's right to abortion, let alone gay rights, you must be joking.

All I'm saying is America isn't a basition of equal rights by a lot of measures, some in name more than in practice. The last lynching was in 1981 for Christ's sake. So lambasting other countries for not being so tolerant is not a great point to make, IMO.

1. https://www.aclu.org/map/nationwide-anti-mosque-activity

[gm-conspiracy]

So majority rule is bad if you don't agree with the majority?

[eveningcoffee]

You may be interested to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

[losteric]

upvoted; I think you're wrong, but that is a position worth discussing.

Fascism and fanaticism are primitive modes of society, a stable society with extensive trade inevitably learns and matures towards liberal democracy.

The Middle East was making progress before the west destroyed stability in the name of exploitative exports and proxy wars. We are directly and exclusively responsible for the return of fascism and fanaticism. Violence only begets more violence; ISIS is just another head on the hydra, murder everyone and 3 more organizations will take their place.

The path to peace is deep and sustained economic aid, funding native education centers, rebuilding national identities, and facilitating mutual demilitarization... in addition to weening the west off of oil through deep investments in modern energy sources.

[gm-conspiracy]

Democracy is working great in the US though, right?

[brabel]

Well, yes it is! Trump may not be the liberal, modern president you might have wished for, but compared to pretty much any non-democratic leader, and even many supposedly-democratically elected leaders, he's pretty good if you ask me (I don't support his policies, but he seems to defend his country's interests sincerely and honestly, something most people in the world wish they could say about their leaders).

[losteric]

Actually, yes!

Have you ever been on an ops-heavy software team? Change never happens until the right level of management feels pain. Politics of all forms is the art of managing pain. It's never perfect, and will never be perfect.

If you really care about this stuff, focus on the second derivative. The status quo doesn't matter, the present is too short to fix. The direction we're headed matters a little bit, but 300 million people take ages to change so that's a very laggy metric. What's important is how we are changing the direction we are moving in.

America has flaws, we feel pain, and now we're self-correcting :) Lots of change in the pipeline, Trump is a symptom of how bad it got and now good it's about to become.