[canadian_voter]

Friend of mine just got a new tech job with one of those boring old Fortune 100 companies. Wore a suit to the interview; the interviewer told him to dress it down for the job.

So he wore slacks, a belt and a button up shirt on the first day; people seemed really nervous around him, like he was there to audit them.

So he meets the people he's going to work with: his "boss" is in a stained t-shirt, shorts, no shoes, super casual. I mean like 20 years ago he wouldn't have been able to buy a soda in a beach-town convenience store. Looks at my friend like he's from Mars.

A few weeks in and my friend still over-dresses. I mean, his shirt has a COLLAR for christsakes. It looks like it has been IRONED for the love-of-god. We'll see how long he lasts. Maybe when he gets more comfortable he'll start wearing ripped jeans and a pink floyd t-shirt. We'll see.

[Spooky23]

When I interviewed for my 2nd out of college job (circa 2000), I happened to interview on a day where the folks I was interviewing with had a conference, so they were dressed up. My start date was delayed for some bureaucratic reason.

Not knowing what the dress code was, I showed up my first day in a suit, and headed up to the office, which had been moved the week prior. I'm wandering around looking for my boss, when the Commissioner's secretary (this is a .gov gig) spots me, and thinks I'm a salesman as they had an issue with salespeople crashing the place. Nobody can find my boss, and five minutes later, two policeman show up and escort me out of the building. Thankfully my boss was a smoker, and rescued me as the cops were kicking me out! :)

The particular division I was in had a pretty eclectic collection of dressers. The bigshots wore suits or sportsjackets, and most people did the business casual thing. Then there were the... others. One dude did leather pants and a massive cowboy hat, there was a male and female tracksuit contingent, and a few people wearing sweatpants of all things.

[canadian_voter]

I showed up my first day in a suit ... and thinks I'm a salesman as they had an issue with salespeople crashing the place.

If I see someone with a suit, clipboard and lanyard, I run the other way. Especially if they have good hair.

[Spooky23]

That's hilarious, because minus the good hair, that was me.

I had a packet of crap from HR, some goofy lanyard with a visitor badge and of course the suit! :)

[canadian_voter]

Oh man, and I bet you were really eager looking to! Kept looking at everyone who came your way with an expectant smile? I would totally have mistaken you for a sales person.

[Symbiote]

On my first day, I was mistaken for one of the 30+ students arriving for interviews for summer research positions.

One of the students was late, the busy receptionist assumed it was me, and rushed me to the student interview room.

Meanwhile, my manager is at reception, on time, wondering where I am, and who the stressed-looking 19 year old is.

[aanm1988]

> Nobody can find my boss, and five minutes later, two policeman show up and escort me out of the building

They didn't bother to check on the whole "I'm here to start work, my boss is <T>" ?

[TeMPOraL]

Maybe they said: "yeah, right; the two people before you also said they're meeting <T>, except they weren't" and continued to escort him out.

I mean, if I were asked to escort a salesman out of the building, I'd immediately assume that they'll be trying to talk their way into staying, so I'd put my extra assertive face on.

[noir_lord]

The company was obviously missing a generic handler for <T>.

[ghaff]

Interesting. I find stereotypical business casual (khakis or maybe jeans these days and a button down shirt/polo shirt) to still be pretty much the norm even at a lot of tech companies, at least on the East Coast. That's pretty much what I wear. It's comfortable and it works even if I have to drop into a customer or analyst meeting.

Honestly, I find dressing down from that involves more thinking about what I will/may have to do in the course of the day. Khakis and a collared shirt let me do pretty much anything that may come up without thinking about it.

[pionar]

It's interesting, isn't it? I myself dress business casual even though my workplace is a casual place (jeans, tshirts, shorts, sandals, whatever). It's just more _me_. I don't like how sloppy I look in t-shirts. I don't think t-shirts are sloppy, just on me. So for me it's usually a button-down and some khakis or nice jeans.

My colleague (the other development manager, same age as me - mid 30s) basically has a casual "uniform" - some band t-shirt and jeans. Every day. He even admits that he has 5 shirts and five pairs of jeans that are his work clothes. It works for him.

[iamacynic]

the dirty secret of jeans and t-shirts is: the good looking and good fitting jeans and t-shirts are pretty damn expensive. and those band t-shirts, if authentic, probably are too. it has become a fashion category in and of itself, complete with a high end range.

jeans are all over the spectrum, but unless they are obviously from a giant bin at a discount store, probably are at least $100, likely above $200 per pair. and there are plenty of $500 pairs of jeans out there...

my casual white dyed hemp rainbow sandals are $50, some of the special edition ones i've had over the years (braided leather, etc). are $100+. pretty expensive for basically a flat piece of rubber and a strap of material covered in cloth.

when someone shows up to work in truly cheap jeans/t-shirt/sandals, it doesn't look good, they look trashy and nothing fits properly.

it's just a signal of spending power / hipness on the more casual side of the scale. i've seen people dressed in "jeans and t-shirts" wearing vintage swiss watches. in wealthier areas where a tech company would be, a casual 'jeans and t-shirt' outfit could cost either $25 total or $1000 total.

[TremendousJudge]

>jeans are all over the spectrum, but unless they are obviously from a giant bin at a discount store, probably are at least $100, likely above $200 per pair.

what? levis are like 40 bucks on amazon

[magic_beans]

Levi's don't look great on a lot of men, and their cuts are atrocious for thinner women. $100 dollar jeans are often cut much more nicely.

[e12e]

Hm. Searching for Levi 501 (the canonical 80 heroin rock singer cut) yields prices like: offers from $21.78 - $ 131. I'm not sure what you get for ~40 bucks or how it's different from the one for 131.

[Neliquat]

Levi's is pretty much bargain bin quality. Last time I tried them on I tiried 6 same size pairs, all fit vastly different. One had a pocket sewn shut. No qc whatsoever. Its like they gave up.

[hammock]

You have to go to the standalone Levi's retail stores to get the good jeans. The stock in department stores like Macy's is lower quality

[VLM]

For an extra $9 you could have bought jeans made in the USA by Buddy Jeans corporation of Mississippi, which in my experience are extremely high quality, instead of Chinese clothes that fall apart instantly but cost 20% less.

A place in Wisconsin makes my work shoes that in the long run are cheaper than imports.

The point of these anecdotes, is I am interested to consider as labor arbitrage and cost of oil and whatever else wipes out the price advantage of foreign imported clothes that used to exist for the last generation or two, if the surviving American clothing manufacturers being somewhat fancier and higher end will result in Americans "soon" wearing generally fancier clothes.

As a concrete example of my theory, currently New Balance Chinese made sneakers are the cheapest thing to slap on your feet. They look ultra casual, usually pretty dirty, and are engineered to fall apart extremely rapidly (for example they recently took the eyelets out of the lace holes to make the laces destroy the plastic fake leather faster). However... over the long term its already cheaper to buy Thorogood dress shoes made in Wisconsin because they last roughly forever and as a side effect look quite stylish in my opinion, and as economic trends continue, its conceivable that soon the cheapest shoes available to slap on your feet will be some rather formal looking Thorogoods, then for an extra $20 you can buy some New Balance from China that fall apart in four months of use. And my theory is we are very close to that tipping point with the result that at least in the short term "average folks who don't care about fashion" will be wearing much less casual, much more formal appearance clothing.

It seems a realistic hypothesis, easily testable, fits prevailing trends...

My wife buys me casual weekend clothes from Nordstroms or Von Maur or whatever and that casual weekend stuff costs more than the cheap generic polos I wear at work. Like a hugo boss shirt that looks nice for weekend wear but costs $100 vs yesterday I wore some generic Target polo to work because we "dress up" at this conservative employer. I've also noticed I can sometimes buy cheap dockers or dockers knockoffs on sale for less than what I pay for weekend wear jeans. So with respect to my hypothesis the future is already here, just unevenly distributed.

I'm old enough that I had to wear the suit and tie to the financial employer in the olden days. Its very comfortable if you spend enough money and suits were quite expensive. The field service techs I tangentially worked with would maliciously comply by purchasing the ugliest used clothes imaginable from Goodwill and throw the suit out at the end of a shift if it got ruined. Its interesting to see the tables turn and my clothes on the weekend cost more than work cloths unlike when I was young.

[iamacynic]

i said good looking and good fitting. of course most people don't wear clothes that fit or look good. the person i replied to mentioned he looks 'sloppy' in t-shirt and jeans.

i'm pointing out the fact that you're guaranteed to look sloppy in t-shirt/jeans/sandles unless you buy the expensive stuff or are top 10% fit and attractive, and even then, there's no saving some really cheap stuff. those good looking 'casually dressed' people are spending real money to achieve that look.

[iopuy]

I have found nirvana when it comes to buying clothes. This won't appeal to most people but if you close to a decently sized city go check out the thrift stores. Chances are you will find a wide array of suitable clothes for dirt cheap.

Yeah I know, picking through used clothes has a horrible connotation and the signal to noise ratio can be quite small, but you can absolutely find what you need.

[iamacynic]

thrifting isn't exactly fringe these days, even among yuppies and rich fashionable young people. the problem is it takes a lot of time, because finding the right fit becomes the real challenge.

[ourmandave]

^This. Like Facebook's Zuckerberg wears a t-shirt so he doesn't have to think about getting dressed, I wear khakis and the same blue polo every day like a uniform. My closet looks like Spongebob's.

[XorNot]

Black cargo pants and an orange T-shirt.

I have like 15 of the shirt.

[walshemj]

That reminds me when I interviewed at AKQA I went suited and booted I was interviewed by a guy in a t shirt that was so raged and dirty that I wouldn't have worn it to do the gardening in.

I got a hint that I might have overdressed when on the way to the Interview a passer-by asked me the way to the ivy ( a very exclusive restaurant)

[Chris2048]

I once dressed for an interview, and on the way back popped into a comic book store. Inside, a guy started asking me about my little pony stuff - he thought I was the manager..

[TeMPOraL]

I was once going to an event in a full suit, but before that, I attended a guest lecture on my university. I was just a regular attendee, but my clothes were enough for people to think I manage this guest lecture. I was handed the keys to the lecture hall, and people would come to me with questions and issues...

[magic_beans]

The passerby probably thought you were waitstaff ;)

[walshemj]

not in a $800 Italian suit I think :-)

[ciaranm]

Your friend is likely projecting. People simply don't care that much about what others in the office wear.

[djcapelis]

> So he meets the people he's going to work with: his "boss" is in a stained t-shirt, shorts, no shoes, super casual. I mean like 20 years ago he wouldn't have been able to buy a soda in a beach-town convenience store.

No wonder everyone's nervous around your friend. If he forms his opinions on whether or not his manager has authority based on his clothing that's going to be an inheriently uncomfortable experience. Why did you use scare quotes around boss? And would you do it if the guy had worn nicer clothing?

Does your friend feel that way?

If so, his new co-workers are right to be nervous. The fellow is seriously misaligned in understanding how his new workplace is structured. He can dress how he likes, but if he starts using clothing to measure respect in a modern workplace... that's a problem.

[Nursie]

Haha...

And here I am today, sat in the UK offices of a Fortune 100 company (one of the big finance houses) wearing scuffed boots, black jeans and my old Megadeth t-shirt...

I am on the scruffier end of the spectrum, to be sure, but not the worst.

[gadders]

I work in Investment Banking. The only difference I have seen over the years is a) Casual Friday and b) tie wearers are in the minority now. Most men still wear suits though.

[Nursie]

It would be a stretch to say I work in investment banking - we provide hardware and software platforms for some of the finance types to run their stuff on.

Very casual team, fairly casual office (of a few thousand people). No idea what anyone else here does outside of the five or six people I work with, though.

[gadders]

Actually, some people wear brown shoes as well now, not just the Italians.

[zebrafish]

This is sort of interesting. Typically trends in high fashion come from the counter culture. The counter culture rejects the mainstream and, either intentionally or unintentionally, their fashion pisses people off. The goal of high fashion is to evoke emotion and fear/anger tend to be easy emotions to get out of people (Imagine your mother reacting to goths in the mall).

It seems, from this example, that some future counter culture fashion could be rooted in traditional formal wear considering how uncomfortable it has made your friend's coworkers feel.

[naravara]

I feel like some stagnant big companies do a bit of a cargo-cult thing when it comes to being innovative. "Surely if we wear the stained hoodies, the ripped jeans, and the man-buns we too can churn out brilliant and innovative products! (Let's not worry about our working culture, budgetary priorities, or management styles or anything. The dress code is where the real magic is!)"

[empath75]

I work for a dotcom era company, and the dress code here is basically jeans and 90s industrial band t-shirts.

And everyone is in their 40s.

[jboy]

Sounds awesome! (to another wearer of 90s industrial band t-shirts)

Which company?

[genofon]

reading the last line with my AC/DC tshirt made me think a bit, and yes, I am a "boss" (well just lead, maybe doesn't count), but at least I have shoes.

[draw_down]

That's actually awesome, what a ridiculously simple way to mess with people. Something about nerds makes them freeze up when they see a guy in a suit as if it gave one magical powers. People claim not to care about clothes or fashion, but if that were true they wouldn't care if he wore a suit.

[fao_]

It's not about fashion, it's about the fact that we have long folklore about people in suits. Almost everyone who is in a suit is out to get you for something. Bosses, Ignorant Managers, Salesmen, Estate Agents[0], Religious salesmen, etc, etc.

Almost all of those are people who prey on the weak, the meek, and the pitiful.

hiss.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ap6-e3mVg

[TeMPOraL]

Also power, which implies risk. Besides the various kinds of salesmen, which you can recognize quickly, people wearing suits are usually those with power that can affect you - bosses, managers, lawyers, government officials. Piss them off, and they can ruin your day. Or life. So one learns to be extra careful around people in suits.

[draw_down]

That's really silly. You can be exploited by people in jeans and tshirts. Hell, it's happening to me right now.

[sidlls]

Yes, one can be, but for decades spanning more than a few generations the norm has been that more formal dress was associated with that class of exploiter.

[Arizhel]

>Bosses, Ignorant Managers, Salesmen, Estate Agents[0], Religious salesmen, etc, etc.

>Almost all of those are people who prey on the weak, the meek, and the pitiful.

Which one of those is the exception? Decent bosses?

[fao_]

Yup. Some bosses are alright.

[VLM]

Its a ridiculously masculine discussion but it works the same way when my wife wears formalware dresses or cocktail dresses or whatever they're called.

Simple primate dominance stuff. My work clothes cost maybe $85 at target including the underwear (was that too much information?) because its just work and people don't care much. The point of a dude in a suit is I dropped $85 but he dropped $2K, maybe more. Even cheap off the rack he spent, I donno how much that costs anymore, $200?

Conspicuous consumption, same as the gold watch or womens jewelry or the expensive car. An extremely public display of I can spend money that you don't/can't.

[draw_down]

Maybe, though I work in an office where nobody would ever wear a suit but people have all kinds of expensive clothes, jackets, shoes, jewelry, bags.

[aanm1988]

> his "boss"

is his boss, whether he dresses like a slob or not.