[temp246810]

Meh - there are just as many people making the same accusation you are as to render it useless.

I read countless anecdotes on HN and hear many more in person of people with just the shittiest managers, of people who rarely see "competent" engineering organizations, of people who have "never" seen a competent project manager, that it really is a wonder we have any profitable companies at all.

In reality, if you don't understand the value someone is providing them, you should make an effort to understand what they might be doing before making claims like the ones you're making.

[maxxxxx]

I hear what you are saying. Before declaring someone is useless you definitely should make sure to understand what they are doing.

On the other hand, I am pretty convinced that there is a sizeable number of people in companies who create a lot of busywork "managing" things. The project I am on has 3 developers (as far as I can tell) and probably more than 10 business analysts, project managers, architects and other managers putting their name on it. I have tried to understand what they are all doing but from what I can tell there are two managers who actually help the project and the other ones write reports to each other, call a lot of meetings but don't really contribute. They just regurgitate what the few active people are doing.

[temp246810]

I'm 32 and work as a PM at a Big Hip Tech Co. in the bay area.

Once I was on a team with 2 QA analysts, 1 Eng Manager, myself as PM, 3 BA's (that I did not want), and 3 developers, and one platform architect. All this plus 1 director overseeing our tiny team. Not to mention the 1-2 BA's I worked with whenever I worked on something that impacted another team.

During my 1:1 with said director, I once lashed out - I hadn't slept well in 4 days and I simply sounded off. I literally said everything that's been said in this thread: everything from why the fuck do we have so many people, give me 5 engineers and fire everyone else, to all you care about is the headcount that reports to you.

Luckily, I was a top performer, and while this tarnished my reputation with this director, I was able to smooth things over over the course of a few months.

This director explained to me that I was no longer at a start up. That this team should be resilient - that anyone should be able to take 2-3 weeks off at a time without interrupting the work. That they didn't want us working pedal to the metal 100% of the time. That it was ok that it was slow, and that I shouldn't be so self-conscious or hard on myself if I wasn't always working my fingers to the bone.

Now, I still thought we had way too much fat. Some of those BA's had no business being on a technical team, even as BA's and we should have traded in the architect and dev manager for an extra QA and developer.

But what that conversation did was bring me back down to earth. So much of what we view as right and wrong is personal preference. While I still disagreed with the amount of waste, it removed the chip on my shoulder and now I simply make sure to join teams that I like.

That's more of a ramble, but gives you some context as to where I was coming from.

[cookiecaper]

Yeah, it's definitely true that a lot of people fail to comprehend the more holistic, bigger picture perspective. There's nothing necessarily wrong with a moderate working pace and building in some redundancy, especially since multiple people with overlapping functions can review one another's work, cover for each other, etc.

This, however, doesn't excuse hiring incompetent people based on appearance and likability with blatant disregard for their competence (I recognize that for many non-technical managers, it is difficult or impossible to discern the quality of one's skillset), nor does it excuse stuffing teams with dead weight just because the hiring manager personally likes the people involved. And those practices are indeed rampant.

[maxxxxx]

As a dev I would be OK if these superfluous people would stay out of the way but in addition to not contributing they call meetings, ask for reports, filter information, schedule reviews and whatever. So they make my life more difficult without adding value.