[varelse]

So you would prefer your coworkers develop RSI symptoms from straining to use a laptop keyboard? Not all of us can use laptops for extended periods of time. Now if I could type with my brain (and I don't mean by smashing my head repeatedly on the keyboard), that's Sam Altman status quo shattering next-level stuff, but I don't think we're there yet.

As others have replied, the problem isn't my typing, it's <40 square feet of personal space and no noise partitioning whatsoever.

[blhack]

The standard keyboard layout, which every mechanical keyboard I've ever seen (including my beloved model M) is terrible for your wrists. The people using mechanical keyboards are not saving themselves anything.

Get a proper ergonomic keyboard like the microsoft sculpt if you actually care about the health of you hands.

Mechanical keyboards are cool, which is why I own one, and when I had an office why I used one every day. But mechanical keyboards are like the loud exhaust that people put on their cars. Yeah, there is a reason that some cars have loud exhausts, but that isn't why you put that on your honda civic.

[_jal]

You appear to think that mechanical boards cannot be ergonomic. I agree that the Model M and friends are terrible, but that's hardly[1] the end[2] of the mechanical[3] ergo[4] story[5].

[1] https://ergodox-ez.com/ [2] https://atreus.technomancy.us/ [3] https://trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/649yo0... [5] http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/

[blhack]

Fair point. There are some ergonomic mechanical keyboards. I have never personally seen one in use. It's always stuff like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/6cnfta...

Which are beautiful, and make wonderful noises, but are certainly not built to prevent the type of RSI that comes with typing.

[seanmcdirmid]

> The standard keyboard layout, which every mechanical keyboard I've ever seen (including my beloved model M) is terrible for your wrists.

If you type a lot over a prolonged period of time, yes. If you type in short bursts (like most programmers), no, mechanicals are actually useful.

> Get a proper ergonomic keyboard like the microsoft sculpt if you actually care about the health of you hands.

Again, if you are an old fashioned typist working on memos, this advice holds, otherwise....

[blhack]

>If you type a lot over a prolonged period of time, yes. If you type in short bursts (like most programmers), no, mechanicals are actually useful.

Is this really how most programmers work, though? When I'm learning a new language or tool, sure, but after that it's mostly just the activity of writing the code.

[seanmcdirmid]

> Is this really how most programmers work, though?

Yes, well, I guess it depends on how mundane the coding is. It is possible that a programmer spends a lot of time typing and not a lot of time thinking, but then it is probably brain dead boilerplate that should have been automated somehow.

> When I'm learning a new language or tool, sure, but after that it's mostly just the activity of writing the code.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "writing code".

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2039522

[blhack]

Look, I'm not trying to get into an argument with you here, but:

1) You are not an authority on all programmers, or even most programmers.

2) The primary way that programmers express their work is by typing. The idea that programmers don't do very much typing, or that typing comfort/safety isn't relevant to programers is demonstrably absurd.

>"it is probably brain dead boilerplate that should have been automated somehow."

3) This thinly veiled derision is, imho, not constructive/rude. Do you consider the linux kernal "brain dead boilerplate"? Just some quick googling shows that the per developer code contribution is about 11,000 loc per release. That is code that was in the release, and doesn't even account for code that was typed, then removed, then retyped, etc.

Believe whatever you want, but I find the idea that programmers somehow don't need to care about ergonomics extremely shortsighted.

[seanmcdirmid]

Again, there is plenty of opinion that programming is much more thinking than typing. Any programmer who says they code at even 20 wpm is probably BSing, or are caught doing a lot of transcription work.

You can write 11K lines of code without continuously typing a lot, especially over a few weeks.

[varelse]

I've been down this route many times. And after Dvorak, Kinesis, and a wide assortment of supposedly ergonomic keyboards, El-cheapo $15 Kensington USB keyboards and $20 Logitech trac-balls turn out to work best with my wrists, occasionally aided by Imax smartgloves.

I have a veritable museum of failed keyboards and pointing devices in my closet. IMO there is no silver bullet here. Also to extend your automotive metaphor, my nephew's late model diesel pickup gets 30+ mpg. Appearances and brand new shiny can be deceiving.

[blhack]

Have you tried the sculpt? I was having wrist pain that was preventing me from working up until about a week after mine arrived.

[varelse]

Its predecessors, yes, many times. The brand new shiny $100 Sculpt? No.

[blhack]

The sculpt with the mouse is about $60 on amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CYX54C0/ref=oh_aui_deta...

[varelse]

Used, not new...

If someone were to lend me this combo for a couple weeks, I'd be happy to evaluate it, and if it worked, I'd buy a bunch of them. But I have a working solution right now so I'm not really in the market for an upgrade.

[mahyarm]

I need large mouses to not get hand pain, and the sculpt mouse has been the biggest mouse that I've found that fit that criteria for me quite well. It's even bigger than the mx master.

I haven't found a larger traditional mouse yet.

[splintercell]

> Get a proper ergonomic keyboard like the microsoft sculpt if you actually care about the health of you hands.

I had this conversation with my coworker a few minutes ago who uses an ergonomic keyboard. I believe that the amount of stress you're going to have from a non-ergonomic keyboard is directly related to your posture, which is directly related to your anatomy. For instance my coworker is very wide and he prefers to spread his elbows out while typing.

I, on the other hand don't spread out my elbows that far out, so I don't really feel that must stress while typing for long hours.

One thing which I do notice is that I type by moving my right wrist around (and most people do that to keep their wrists free for grabbing mouse and other things). But if I try doing touch typing where I keep my fingers on the homerow, then my wrists hurt.

Maybe I'm going to give ergo-dox a shot to see what am I missing.

[givemefive]

I have a proper keyboard[1], thank you very much. It also destroys a Microsoft Sculpt in terms of ergonomics.

1. https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

[blhack]

How do you like this keyboard?

[givemefive]

I love it SO much. I wouldn't be able to be a software engineer without it. The amount of neck, shoulder, elbow, forearm, wrist and hand pain I once had is now gone completely. Not to mention I am a much faster and more accurate typist.

[blhack]

Data point added! Thank you.

I've definitely been on a bit of a kick lately trying to make my work setup as healthy as possible.

[givemefive]

I re-bought everything, chair, monitor stand, electronically raising desk, keyboard, two vertical mice - for left hand and right hand. I didn't find it that hard to use a left handed mouse as a right handed person but your mileage may vary. I swap between the two throughout the day.

I think out of all of those, having the monitor at the right height, vertical mouse, kinesis advantage and then using a pomodoro timer are the best bang for buck. The standing desk is nice but not really essential in my opinion. Just getting up and walking after a 25-30m pomodoro session is good enough.

[Joeri]

I struggled a long time with RSI, and for me both the mechanical and ergonomic keyboards solve the problem. A model M fixed it, and then later a microsoft comfort curve also fixed it. The comfort curve is a lot more quiet, so out of respect for my coworkers I use that one, although I do miss the feel of the model M.

[cpwright]

I have a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard with Cherry Red mechanical switches, without it I get wrist pain.

[amorphid]

Anything noisy in an open office, including me when forget to lower my voice, is bothersome :)