[smoyer]

No ... I think I was pretty specific about including the agencies who operate without enough oversight, frequently flaunt the law (and ignore the constitution) and are eroding the rights of the people they're supposedly serving.

The military is completely different. The troops on the ground are generally following orders and highly disciplined. There are definitely occasions where I don't agree with the orders they're following - I can't possibly fault the soldiers. Adding the Coast Guard to the mix is borderline ridiculous. And you completely forgot the Red Cross - there are some very militant nurses involved.

[mitchellshow]

Please provide references for these claims:

operate without enough oversight

This is your opinion. FISA Court exists for a reason, and is there to protect the rights of Americans.

frequently flaunt the law (and ignore the constitution)

No idea how you're getting to this assumption, unless you're taking clickbait at face value. There have been contested judgements regarding the legal justification for metadata collection. That hardly constitutes "ignoring the constitution." I'm also curious as to your claim of frequency.

eroding the rights of the people they're supposedly serving

NSA cannot collect information about American citizens, only FBI can. I believe NSA can only be involved with a specific warrant issued in response to an imminent or direct threat, but even then, I think it has to be FBI.

The military is completely different

This is the point I'm trying to make to you: NSA is the military. One more time. NSA is the military. Excuse the gross oversimplification, but NSA provides intelligence to other branches of the military so that they can function in the most informed way possible.

If you "can't possibly fault the soldiers" who are "on the ground" and "generally following orders," I'm going to assume that you are someone that supports keeping US soldiers as safe as possible. Yet, you seem to delight in the notion that the NSA would be shut down for a week, which would directly endanger those lives. How would you rectify this?

[smoyer]

I suppose these are now my opinions - they've developed over the last ten or so years as we've learned just how entrenched these supposedly controlled agencies are. The FISA court is described as rubber-stamping warrants etc. Read the news!

Your assertion that the NSA can't collect data about American Citizens would be great if it were true. There are pretty convincing arguments that they aren't abiding by at least the spirit of the law and that their lawyers are actively engaged in weasel-wording away the restrictions. I'm sorry but collecting the meta-data of American citizens is still collecting data (meta is a sub-class).

You've got a pretty strong opinion of the agency ... I'm guessing that you work for the PsyOps division. Or perhaps you're just a youngin' who hasn't been around the block quite enough times. And don't get me wrong - I've had a great life as a U.S. citizen. I gained my political awareness during the Reagan presidency and was at that point very proud of everything my country did - I didn't know how much was happening outside the view of the TV screen that I wouldn't be proud of - or how many other parts of our history could be questioned.

I'm certainly not advocating anything beyond having exactly this kind of discussion. It's not my fault that the NSA, CIA and U.S Government are viewed so negatively - they have the reputation that they deserve. I can understand why the rest of the world hates us but I hope we can decide to change our behavior.

[mitchellshow]

> Your assertion that the NSA can't collect data about American Citizens would be great if it were true.

NSA is not allowed to intercept communications of American citizens. I should have been more explicit about that. I am simply trying to add context to what I believe is an erroneous perception that the NSA is a building full of gunslinging unchecked hackers that gleefully eschew US law so that they can... do what exactly?

> You've got a pretty strong opinion of the agency ... I'm guessing that you work for the PsyOps division. Or perhaps you're just a youngin' who hasn't been around the block quite enough times.

LOL. What does it say that you'd assume anyone who has a non-negative opinion of NSA is either working for them, or young and misinformed? Sorry to disappoint, but I am neither. I simply respect the truth, and misinformation regarding the US intelligence community is a cancerous detriment to the long-term personal safety of Americans. This is why I asked for references for your claims. But if you take nothing else away from our exchange other than the understanding that NSA is military, I'm happy.

> I'm certainly not advocating anything beyond having exactly this kind of discussion.

Good. I'm glad. See how it only takes a simple challenging of one's opinions to go from "I hope the NSA gets shut down" to "let's have a discussion?"

[ionised]

> I can't possibly fault the soldiers

You can. We all collectively decided at Nuremberg that I was just following orders is not a credible defence of one's actions.

[qb45]

> The troops on the ground are generally following orders and highly disciplined.

Because they had been disciplined, this isn't how military used to work 10k years ago.

I agree with your parent that it probably is safer to work on disciplining the NSA (and others such) than hope that they will get pwned or do anything in that direction.