[DanBC]

> Right or wrong Teaching, Social Work,Child Care and Nursing pay less than Executives, Programming, STEM Fields, etc

But when we only look at nursing we still see a gender pay gap.

When you look at nursing, specifically midwifery (surely the most feminised sector of nursing) we see that at lower pay bands the ratio of men:women is almost no men to almost all women. As we go up the pay bands we see that ratio changing.

We see this for many different types of health care staff. Ambulance workers start with a 60:40 male:female ratio at the lower bands, and end up at band 8d with a 95:5 male female ratio.

So, for the English NHS when we only look at eg midwifery (we see it when we look at other HSCS staff too) we still see a gender pay gap.

Have a look at the English statistics here: http://content.digital.nhs.uk/article/2021/Website-Search?pr...

NHS Workforce Statistics - September 2016, Provisional statistics

Publication date: December 20, 2016

We want this file: HCHS staff in NHS Trusts and CCGs in England, Equality and Diversity, September 2016 [.xlsx]

Hospital and Community Health Services Staff statistics.

  	Midwives
  	Payband	Men	Women	Total	Ratio men:women
  	Band 5	11	2301	2312	0.00:1.00
  	Band 6	57	18294	18351	0.00:1.00
  	Band 7	36	4663	4699	0.01:0.99
  	Band 8a	2	183	185	0.01:0.99
  	Band 8b	1	31	32	0.03:0.97
  	Band 8c	2	15	17	0.12:0.88

Here's the table for Ambulance staff.

  Ambulance staff						
  	payband	men	women	total	ratio men:women	
  	Band 4	2222	1479	3701	0.60:0.40
  	Band 5	5986	4072	10058	0.60:0.40
  	Band 6	3553	1889	5442	0.65:0.35
  	Band 7	610	202	812	0.75:0.25
  	Band 8a	85	25	110	0.77:0.23
  	Band 8b	49	10	59	0.83:0.17
  	Band 8c	14	1	15	0.93:0.07
  	Band 8d	14	1	15	0.93:0.07

[chippy]

> we still see a gender pay gap.

Could you explain the gender pay gap in these midwifery statistics please? I am struggling to find that information.

I see that as people get higher bands (probably get older) they get paid more. I see one or two men in the higher bands which to me raises some statistical significance queries. I see that the Ratio of men to women increase from incredibly small to very small, but that doesn't (to me) indicate a gender pay gap. Unless the "gender pay gap" here is that men are paid less compared to women as there are less men in the profession? Perhaps it's about the definition of "pay gap" - does it just refer to unequal outcome? Does it mean that we should expect the same ratio to occur in all pay bands, equally (e.g. not allow men to have pay grade 8), and if we do not see the same ratio that there is a pay gap by virtue of unequal representation?

[DanBC]

For midwifery we see that even though hardly any men enter the profession (just 11 men at band 5) we still see men in the senior positions (2 at band 8a, 1 at 8b, 2 at 8c).

So, if hardly any men enter the profession and very many women enter the profession I'd expect to see no men at band 8x (because the tiny number of men have to compete against a huge number of women at each promotion). Instead we see a higher percentage of men at band 8x than at band 5 or 6. This shows one of the mechanisms of the gender pay gap: men get promoted faster and further than women. This debunks one of the points some people are making in this thread that the gender pay gap disappears if you only look at one profession.

I've added the numbers for ambulance staff.

At the entry level positions we see a split of 60% men to 40% women.

As you go up the paybands you see the percentages changing - you see men being promoted more readily than women, until you get to the band 8ds where we see 95% men to 5% women.

Why are the ratios changing? Why do we see a higher percentage of men in senior roles in health care professions?

[chippy]

Thanks, I see what the point is now. To show how one there is a similar effect or mechanism in play even when looking at another (and you could say non obvious) field. I was confused as I assumed it indicated The Gender Pay Gap in it's own right but I think it has more accuracy in saying that it shows to be evidence of one of the indicators.

[syshum]

I am failing to see how any of this data proves a gender discrimination based pay gap

[DanBC]

Men are promoted faster and further than women, even when we only look at a narrow specific profession.

[syshum]

That is at best a correlation, it in no way says that men are promoted faster simply because they are men which is what your are asserting

Correlation does not equal causation