[secfirstmd]

Part of the problem is that genuinely innovative ideas from small businesses find it impossible to navigate the mess that is EU related funding. Meaning only the big players can access them. Also, the amount of unnecessary duplication and crap sold in the security industry is unbelievable.

If you go to the Counter Terrorism Expo in London, you can see this. Dozens of organisations selling effectively the same stuff.

Much of which is actually pure crap from a security/defence standpoint. How do they actually manage to sell it? Connections...hiring people who previously where in side the military/intelligence/Defence Departments etc. The same process as in the US no doubt. The worse thing is that some of the stuff is both expensive, useless and occasionally dangerous for the people who require it.

BAE Systems is the perfect example of this. They are effectively a hidden British government job scheme. They make crap equipment, overly costly and rarely on time. There are many cases where UK tax payer would actually save money by firing the people in the jobs, giving them golden payoffs and buying more effective equipment elsewhere. Meanwhile their troops would be safer. For example the SA80, Westland Apache helicopters costing 50% more than their US-made Longbow equivalents - the list is endless.

I highly recommend the book "Lions, Donkeys And Dinosaurs: Waste and Blundering in the Military" for a quick overview of that.

[colechristensen]

>They are effectively a hidden British government job scheme.

There is inherent value in simply having an existing capable defense contractor in your own nation. It isn't about dollars and cents, it's about being capable of fighting a war without outside help (or not being wholly dependent). So you throw money at the local defense contractor to keep it alive. It's expensive to do this, but if you don't you pay for it in other ways because if you buy all of your equipment from foreign defense contractors they can use that as political leverage against you.

A lot of money is spent being prepared for wars that won't happen _because_ everyone is prepared for them.

[toyg]

... and then the contractor turns around and gives you China-built parts and US-built software to run them, with little meaningful independence gained.

The industrial world by now is too globalized for this sort of approach to work. We keep pretending otherwise so that money keeps flowing and the general public doesn't freak out, but I bet even the almighty US cannot certify that most of their tech is built at home.

[pavement]

  I bet even the almighty US cannot certify 
  that most of their tech is built at home.

Probably only the shit that matters. The nuclear weapons, first and foremost, and then an exponential decay in validation as you get less and less lethal.

I gotta figure the F-35 is cover for several substantial black budgets at this point, and that it's actually much cheaper than the paper trail would have us believe, simply because I remember reading about the presumed obsolescence of manned warplanes back when the YF-22 and YF-23 were battling for the F-15 replacement program, before the F-22 won.

My rationale being, if pilots are worthless in airplanes, then it doesn't actually matter if the program is properly funded, and it becomes an ideal smoke screen for time and effort diverted elsewhere.

I became even more convinced when I found out the F-22's and the F-35's avionics both were controlled over a firewire bus.

[nnq]

> the F-22's and the F-35's avionics both were controlled over a firewire bus

...and what problem would a firewire bus seem to indicate?

(But overall I'd agree that the widely trumpeted F-35 blunder is kind of a PR stunt from the US military for the rest of the world: "look, we've just spent so many billions on top secret military capabilities you know nothing about, so we have super dope secret weapons that will blow you up, and we believe your spies aren't even competent enough to figure out that our secret programs exist, let alone what they do, so we'll "silently" have to brag about labeling it as "spending blunders" for it for some deterrent value"... the problem with this shit is that such an international mil policy strategy with it's possible strategic implications sounds like the prequel of an Apocalypse/WW3 movie... so let's hope this is not the closest variant to the truth or we're all fucked)

[pavement]

Mostly, the use of a standard interface like firewire (IEEE 1394) seems to hint at economical choices being made somewhere in the supply chain, in that it probably allowed lockheed to source off-the-shelf parts, when wiring up the planes and loading software packages.

They didn't spend extra to develop or patent custom avionics superior to civilian technologies, or even try to lock secret intellectual property into the designs, to create a barrier around the fly-by-wire systems. This is a rare event when it comes to corporations interacting with government programs. Especially when fielding niche high technology line items with decades-long lifecycles.

Whether it was stipulated as part of the government program or one of lockheed's design decisions, there's a sense that the economical option provides breathing room for false compartments, without reducing superficial complexity.

[colechristensen]

Defense contractors talk a whole lot about COTS (commercial off the shelf) these days (and in the past few decades). It's a big deal to be able to not spend money reengineering something equivalent to an existing technology. It would take _years_ to create a new data comms interface (like FireWire, USB 1,2,3, ThunderBolt, etc etc) and why? The signaling physical layer and cabling design don't need to be redone do they?

They'll surely have reengineered cables and connectors to survive the aircraft environment, but who wouldn't rather buy a FireWire PHY from Mouser than design and manufacture something similar from the ground up?

Decisions like this will have happened at Lockheed and high up / early in the design phase. (i.e. it's not some subcontractor finding efficiencies but a fundamental block of the system design)

[flukus]

> I gotta figure the F-35 is cover for several substantial black budgets at this point

And they even got foreign governments to chip in.

[colechristensen]

> I bet even the almighty US cannot certify that most of their tech is built at home.

It's not as hard as you think, the contracts and governing laws are big and complicated governing who can do what and know what which is part of why things are so expensive.

The primary business of being a defense contractor isn't building things, it's interacting with the government and farming out work to other companies. A whole lot of that is just compliance.

[Spooky23]

No, it's all a farce.

If there's ever a global conflict where the scope and scale disrupts those global supply lines, it will go nuclear and not matter anymore.

[hectorr]

It's not just about a massive conflict kinetically disrupting those supply lines. Influcencing those supply lines is a key tactic in the day-by-day posturing and low-level conflicts of geopolitics.

[Spooky23]

That's what we have now in this cyber warfare stuff.

The reality is that we always have to push conflict to the fringes with "Tier 1" states (which I define as people with Nukes). The cold war answer was to fight using proxies indirectly. The modern answer is cyber/information warfare.

[colechristensen]

There were proxy wars sure, but the cold war clandestine ... er spycraft or whatever you'd like to call it has just embraced computers. The CIA and friends and the KGB/FSB and friends just got some new tricks in addition to the old ones.

[tomcam]

> costing 50% more than their US-made Longbow equivalents

When U.S. military equipment is considered a bargain... you're in deep doo-doo

[specialist]

You're describing all procurement, public and private. Only difference is scale.

In the USA, education spending is mostly funneled to cronies. Our elections are well towards being privatized. We blew billions on unnecessary new gear that never worked well and is now landfill. Roads and misc infrastructure is often substandard and overbudget. Etc, etc.

I don't know what the fix is. Maybe more sunshine (transparency, accountability). Like Steve Ballmer's new purpose in life.

[PatentTroll]

This is no doubt true, but I don't think this is compatible with capitalism. Just nationalize BAE and Northrop and General Dynamics, etc. Keep the engineers on the payroll and keep the R&D going without the farce of procurement and contracts. And maybe, just maybe, we could use some of their spare capacity in peacetime for peaceful projects that would have military applications if war arises. Improving communications, transportation, computing, water treatment, power generation, etc. all could benefit the military and civilian worlds. Of course not everything would fit into that rubric, but at lest some could. Didn't Ford convert car factories into tank factories during one of the world wars, why can't we have an electric car factory set up and running that could be configured to churn out tanks at a moments notice? Same with planes too I'd imagine.

[ceejayoz]

> There are many cases where UK tax payer would actually save money by firing the people in the jobs, giving them golden payoffs and buying more effective equipment elsewhere.

The UK learned their lesson on that approach decades ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassau_Agreement#Skybolt_Crisi...

[secfirstmd]

It's been burnt by many joint projects also though...F111 etc