[rmxt]

Hate to be a pedant... but I'm not sure any one person gets to define what "music in the art sense" even is.

Yes, Ableton is rigid. Yes, Ableton favors certain musical styles over others. Yes, Ableton, here and in their design of Live, may just be giving lip service to anything beyond rigid song structure, tempo and dynamic changes, etc. Yes, Ableton loves their little boxes.

But, I find it hard to believe that Ableton has a "complete disregard for music in the art sense." If "art" inherently means "unquantifiability" or pure "aesthetics", then sure, session view Live might not be your best bet. Regardless, arrangement view is basically the same as Pro Tools as far as I can tell/remember from what I've used of Pro Tools.

What is Live missing for you?

[whiddershins]

I think either my phrasing was terrible (likely) or people aren't seriously considering what I am saying.

Try just looping a sample that is of arbitrary length, not some multiple of beats. This is something that we could do fairly easily since the 1980s, and with moderate effort before that. Ableton made this in to an unusual technique.

The entire arrangement view only superficially resembles protools, the automation, the time stretching, everything really, is completely different.

[edkennedy]

I don't understand, it's easy to get arbitrary length loops, that's the reason there is a "fixed length" button on the Push 2 which you can enable if you want.

The arrangement view is not meant to be Protools.

Ableton is actually quite nice for doing experimental and unusual music, it just is built around doing it LIVE. If you want to paint outside the lines, you can with it. "clicking boxes on and off" is simply a way of perceiving layering.

[whiddershins]

Those loops are still a number of beats. When I say arbitrary, I refer to things that may not be any integer value of beats.

[squeaky-clean]

You can disable quantizing and "warp" for clips (or just some clips if you like).

I sometimes use Ableton for noise shows, you can definitely get weird and off the grid with it. Record in 2 loops, not quantized so their lengths don't match exactly, duplicate each loop a few times. Disable warp on a few copies, enable repitching on a few others. Then when you twist the tempo knob some loops rise in pitch while getting faster, some just get faster but keep constant pitch, and some stay the same length and timbre. Record that to another track, then duplicate THAT and repeat, etc.

[maldusiecle]

This takes like a second. Drag a sample into an audio track (in arrangement view), copy it, paste it again where the last sample ended, repeat until it goes on as long as you need. Do you not know how to use Ableton at all?

[whiddershins]

Ignoring the ridiculously insulting tone and just pointing out: using your method, what happens if I subsequently change the tempo in the file?

[maldusiecle]

It breaks. But now you're just adding arbitrary conditions. If you want it to loop without breaking when the tempo changes, load it into Simpler, turn off warping, and create loop points around all of the audio that you want. And then create a single MIDI note holding it on for as long as you need. Or if you need something really unusual, load a looper plugin into Ableton--there are tons. You're acting as if problems that only require a few minutes of cursory thought are impossible to solve.

[weavie]

If it's not a multiple of beats, would it generally sound good in any musical kind of way?

[polotics]

I recommed Steve Reich - Music for 18 musicians :-) Composing in the DAW is the best way to make someone else's music. Create your own creative process, then you are on the way to your own sound.

[whiddershins]

Yes! So many examples of why.

What if I want the sound of rustling leaves to come and go across the course of a song?

What if I wanted my piece to happen over a drone tone similar in function to a tamboura or a constantly feeding back electric guitar?

What if I wanted to have another sort of loop and while playing it back, experiment with different tempos against it to see what sounds right?

And a zillion other things.

[rmxt]

You can turn off auto-warp on audio tracks by default globally, and you can disable warp on a per clip basis as you go.

In your specific case... disable warping on your ambient track, line it up against your warped/synced "another sort of loop" in arrangement view, and then change the master tempo of the track until you find out what you want in terms of different tempos. (This is off the top of my head, and without the program in front of me. Apologies if it's vague.)

Live can definitely function as a "dumb" multitrack recorder that lets you do those things -- but, by default it has all the tempo/beat/quantize options turned on.

I saw your edited post above... I think people are reacting negatively to your criticisms because they're a bit harsh, and, I personally think it's shooting the messenger (Live). You can do the things you want to do in Live... but by default out of the box, it's not what's it designed for. Live lowers the barrier entry to making sound... the people/users cranking out 4-4 120bpm tracks likely wouldn't be making anything had there not been Live. If you don't want to call that sound art or music, that's on you. To many people, that's still music, and music they might not have created otherwise.

EDIT: Just saw your other post here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14300672) with some more specific criticisms. I feel your pain. You obviously already know how to do the thing I'm mentioning above, and are referring to more complicated scenarios. Thanks for sharing.

[jungletek]

>What if I want the sound of rustling leaves to come and go across the course of a song?

Trigger it via MIDI as a one-shot in the sampler, for example. Sampler and Simpler params can be automated. If you want some 'arbitrary' looping, again use the loop points of Sampler and set the (re)triggering appropriately.

You can do all these things if you want to, you just have to invest enough time learning the tools.

Edit: If you respond, you may mention that you have invested the time. Perhaps you have, and I'm just misunderstanding your case or needs.

[edkennedy]

A good example of this is polyrhythm.