[woodandsteel]

I think the Chinese government is making a huge mistake in the way it is oppressing freedom of speech at home and broad.

China is now on its fourth political and economic system in the last century and a half. The present system is an accidental conglomeration of three quite contradictory philosophies: Confucianism, Marxism, and liberalism. It seems quite likely at some point it is going to prove unworkable.

At that point China is going to need to really think things out from basic principles and decide what sort of country it wants to be over the long term. That will take a great deal of intelligent, independent thinking. Alas, that is just what Xi Jinping is doing his best to stamp out.

[unityByFreedom]

> At that point China is going to need to really think things out from basic principles and decide what sort of country it wants to be over the long term. That will take a great deal of intelligent, independent thinking. Alas, that is just what Xi Jinping is doing his best to stamp out.

I'd take the other side for a moment and suggest he may be doing what he thinks is best for unity in China.

Democracy isn't something you can just slap on top of anything. It starts from the ground up because it is built by the people.

Any form of government is always going to be concerned about some form of popular uprising. Negative sentiment isn't good for Trump, and it wouldn't be good for Xi either.

I agree with you that China needs to think things from basic principles. I'm just not sure whether my ideas about applying these within China are more or less correct than Xi's. Ultimately I think that's really up to the Chinese people.

On the one hand, democracy in China seems inevitable as their population grows more wealthy and has free time to demand a better life. On the other, it seems the nationalist side will always be able to say that any attempts to achieve democracy are the result of foreign agents. Perhaps China will achieve democracy when the West's fails. That would be a sight.

[Animats]

China is now on its fourth political and economic system in the last century and a half. The present system is an accidental conglomeration of three quite contradictory philosophies: Confucianism, Marxism, and liberalism. It seems quite likely at some point it is going to prove unworkable.

The current system is working far better than the last few systems. Until 1985, China had regular famines. Now it has the largest GDP in the world.

[woodandsteel]

You're right, China has been doing far better. The question is whether the present political system, which is to a great extent the product of a series of accidents, will hold up over the long term.

I think the reason Confucianism was so successful for so long is the same reason the US system has lasted for centuries, namely both are based on a coherent, well-thought out political and economic philosophy. China at present doesn't have anything like that.

As I see it, the problem with Confucianism is it was designed for an agrarian civilization, whereas today it is an industrial one. The Chinese have never really thought out what sort of system they need for today's world.

[golergka]

> China is going to need to really think things out from basic principles and decide what sort of country it wants to be over the long term. That will take a great deal of intelligent, independent thinking.

What you're describing sounds like a modernist, top-down approach, when an enlightened one in ivory tower decides on a best system of government and organization and then bestows it upon the people of the land. We all know how well something like this works out.

What China seems to be doing, on the other hand, is following the mentality of it's people. There's a lot of corruption and bad stuff happening in China - but it exactly follows the expectations and behavior of ordinary people, and exactly because of that, is more stable than an artificial and lawful democracy, implemented top-down, would be.

[woodandsteel]

>What you're describing sounds like a modernist, top-down approach, when an enlightened one in ivory tower decides on a best system of government and organization and then bestows it upon the people of the land. We all know how well something like this works out.

No, I am talking about lots of scholars talking with each other in public, and thinking about the unique nature of Chinese society, and having a big discussion with everyone.

>What China seems to be doing, on the other hand, is following the mentality of it's people. There's a lot of corruption and bad stuff happening in China - but it exactly follows the expectations and behavior of ordinary people,

Quite true. But part of the reason this is happening is China has never developed a new political philosophy that the people could support and use to improve the society.

[vernon99]

It sounds a bit arrogant. US systems are in a much worse shape than Chinese now (lack of innovation, constant bipartisan struggle, inability to make critical decisions and move forward fast, ridiculous expences) and a lot of that can be attributed to the current political system that supports individualism and freedom to express radically opposing opinions (creating turbulence and distracting from solvig the real problems). To me, after spending some time in both US and China, it seems that the optimal system is authoritarian meritocracy - you need a strong monolythic leadership, the question is how to avoid thyrany. China thus far balances it pretty well. Also, intelligent thinking doesn't really correlate with freedom of speach, btw.

[woodandsteel]

You have to think things out for the long term. Authoritarian systems are often quite successful in the short term, but the have a closed decision making process that leads them into decline over the long term.