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As I said, it's tough to deal with propaganda, and I think the immediate parent comment supports that point.

First, people often spread propaganda without repeating it. There was interesting research a little while ago showing how propaganda stories spread across the Internet; most of the propagation is done unknowingly. Also, others simply use the techniques without realizing it. If they don't intend it to be propaganda, is it? I think it doesn't matter, unless we want to shift focus from the comment to the speaker - a falsehood is just as false independently of the speaker, no matter what the speaker's intent. Ah, uncertainty, a primary tool of the trade.

How do you point out propaganda, politely? One defensive tactic, both of the propagandist and of a normal person (again, it's never certain), is to frame it as a personal attack. Also, it's one thing to point it out with the personal distance of a online message board; what do you say to someone you are talking to - 'those are propaganda talking points'? That's rude, but otherwise you empower it. Again, it's a parasite on good faith and politeness.

This discussion is a tangent, but a very important one: What to do? Doing nothing, politely ignoring it, is to empower it. We've seen disastrous consequences from that, both historically and we seem to be heading in that direction now.

jwtadvice 3333 days ago

I would agree with most of this, but add that the comment could very well be talking about US domestic propaganda and the falsehood narrative that "Russia is behind it."

Essentially it's this: there are many narratives for explaining what's going on provided by different sources of authority and different avenues of information dispersal. Much of it is consistent with a propaganda narrative by the United States, Israel, Russia, Britain, China or another active "strategic communication"/"public messaging" campaigner.

Thinking that any one of these narratives is wholeistic truth (for example the US domestic propaganda) and then charging forward critical of any true facts that inconvenience that propaganda or are consistent with a competing one is not the solution to the problem.

And thus the track that this thread has gone down: inconvenient truths about the gaps, assumptions and conspiracies that support a broader US propaganda position are being called into question not as facts but because merely contributing these facts into the discussion could be conceivably be supportive of a competing narrative.

That's ultimately how these propaganda programs function: they overwhelm your instinctual capability to reason about facts in a manner that is divorced from reaffirmation of the propaganda bubble.

I don't know how to help you get out of it other than to call it out to you.

> Thinking that any one of these narratives is wholeistic truth (for example the US domestic propaganda) and then charging forward critical of any true facts that inconvenience that propaganda or are consistent with a competing one is not the solution to the problem.

Absolutely, but ...

> there are many narratives for explaining what's going on provided by different sources of authority and different avenues of information dispersal. Much of it is consistent with a propaganda narrative by the United States, Israel, Russia, Britain, China or another active "strategic communication"/"public messaging" campaigner.

To make it all equivalent is to make just as much of a mistake on the other end of the continuum, and it is selling the propaganda: It's a talking point of propaganda campaigns, creating uncertainty and paralyzing action. As I said elsewhere, it's the liar who says 'you lie a little, I lie a little, it's all the same'. It's not at all the same; there is truth and it is worth everything. It's like the murderer saying 'you're a little violent, I'm a little violent, it's all the same' - no, I didn't kill anyone. It's not binary - 100% honest or a liar. Not all sources are equally trustworthy, just like not all people are. There are large differences between the Russian government and the NY Times, for example.

> inconvenient truths about the gaps, assumptions and conspiracies that support a broader US propaganda position are being called into question

They aren't truths; that's my point; calling them truths or making claims has nothing to do with truth or seeking it. They are unsubstantiated claims, including that it's US propaganda in the first place. That is the difference.

jwtadvice 3333 days ago

> To make it all equivalent is...

Is your point that you think American propaganda is the truth and non-American propaganda are lies?

I stand by our earlier sophisticated conversation about propaganda as influence and perception management/creation, and how seeking truth in a world filled with propaganda needs to be dispassionately uninvolved in instinctual defense of propaganda, including that of national origin.

I disagree with your original comment.

I absolutely agree with this one. Your original comment certainly added to the discussion, and was well-reasoned (though I disagree with its conclusion).

As a thought experiment: What in that comment allows you to distinguish propaganda from good faith substance? It's a serious question; maybe I'll learn something!

Here's how I look at it: What knowledge did it add? By knowledge, I mean something substantiated and serious; claims and allegations are not knowledge.

"President X did nothing to stop the advance of Y" is a claim. "President X said the following about their policy on Y; as you can see, it's a relatively passive position: '...' [from http://...]" is substantiated knowledge (and admittedly, much on HN isn't substantiated).

(I don't mean to be the arbiter of or set rules for validity and knowledge; I'm just trying to give a rough idea of the distinction I'm trying to make.)

[paraphrased]

> The Shadow Brokers mentioned X. Why didn't Bruce mention it?

> The CIA had an internal hunt for contractors. Why didn't Bruce include this in his analysis?

That was information I hadn't known or had forgotten. I found it useful. jwtadvice is critiquing an opinion piece.

Following your rubric, practically every comment in here will be indistinguishable from propaganda. This is because we're commenting on an opinion piece, which itself is indistinguishable from propaganda. In fact, I assert that the most fact-laden article can be propaganda because it can completely ignore facts supporting the opposition.

Why would you be commenting about this? Because you're doing the same thing we're doing, commenting on a forum because it's fun to discuss stuff. Sure, maybe jwtadvice is a secret propagandist. Maybe I am. I think it's a waste of time to accuse people of it unless there's substance.

A more specific criticism is more appropriate: "You're just concern trolling by saying X." "You're spreading FUD about this topic without evidence. Let's wait and see." "You're changing the goal posts in order to 'be right'. Debate me on my argument." Etc.

> That was information I hadn't known or had forgotten

Fair enough, but how do you know that it's true? That's part of propaganda, to make many unsubstantiated claims that people generally will accept without checking - who has time?

> Following your rubric, practically every comment in here will be indistinguishable from propaganda

In fairness I said that myself; it is a high standard that often isn't met, but it's not hopeless: Many comments do say things that are substantiated (or well-known - 'the sun rises in the east' doesn't need a cite) and they don't follow other patterns of propaganda.

But as I said, it is difficult. Good or even decent propaganda isn't easily distinguished - otherwise it wouldn't be effective.

Excellent rebuttal (I'm not being sarcastic).

I had not checked that the SB actually claimed they got the tools from a left-behind Equation Group pivot server. Or that it's even relevant, because there's plenty of contradictory stuff in their public statements (in the last dump they claim they're inside the IC and they write "Cyber Policy Papers").

I'll say that you have absolutely added to the conversation.

Thanks; I'm glad it was valuable (and thanks for your contributions too). Just one point in addition to yours:

> I had not checked that ...

I don't want to take those words too literally, but I want to make a point: The implied modus operendi, that the listener checks the validity of the claims, doesn't work IMHO. It's too inefficient - the speaker can make up or repeat or simply be sloppy about many claims in seconds, and you the listener would have to spend hours validating them.

The only efficient model is that the speaker has to substantiate the claims or have them ignored (which is the method of more formal forums such as courtrooms and science). Imagine the signal-to-noise ratio with and without that requirement. Without it, false assertions simply get repeated endlessly because nobody has the time to check them out (and of course repetition is confused with truth). With that standard, much of the noise goes away; rants repeating nonsense quickly dry up. You can focus on the good stuff.

People worry, 'I might miss something important.' You only have time to read a tiny fraction of what's written, and even a tiny fraction of what is well-substantiated. You might as well invest that time on the best knowledge available.

cyberpunk 3333 days ago

Do you really see MORE blatant propaganda/bias in the media today than there ever has been? Sure, there is some.. But there always has been and we have such diverse sources for opinion bits that it makes this a nonissue, right?

I mean there is a difference here:

News: "US Bombs Syria" Opinion: "A line was crossed and Trump acted", "XXX Unproved actor did Y so We did Z", "One country just attacked another without going through the UN"

Yeah, states have agendas. Big media groups tend to have interests/friends that aren't totally obvious. Mass media is probably skewed on their commentary as a result.

But, we seem to be extending this warp field as an instant invalidation of all views counter to our own. Something we don't like? Obv ;fake news' and 'propaganda'. It's making lots of silos.

Those with different views are no longer tolerable. Instead of sitting down and listening to someone with a different take, we (generally as humans, I mean) seem to be increasingly looking for ways to invalidate and cheapen them to avoid having to be challenged.

"You think that drugs should be legalised and want to have a serious conversation at a national level about changing our strategy which has clearly failed? Dope head! You must be one of those pink floyd people"

"You're pro-immigration and I'm pro-isolation? Well you're clearly a lefty socialist guardian reading oolong drinker!"

"You're a business owner with serious concerns about the economic consequences of brexit? Remoaner scum!"

This goes both ways than those right/left examples above -- I do it too. I really think we're getting to the point where we can barely even discuss things any more though, we're so divided and unwilling to even listen to each other it's scary.

Yeah, someone might have an agenda. If someone says to you "obamacare gave millions of people health insurance, why do you want to remove it?" and nine times out of ten this discussion ends with nothing achieved other than discussing the motivation of the origional poster, rather instead of discussing the actual issue: don't you think we've lost something?

When did we stop respecting the right of our fellows to have a different opinion, and when did our petty insults of his motivations become more important to us than his points?

One of Churchill's nice ones: "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" and we all seem to be getting fanatical...

Who are you responding to? Do you see this knee-jerk behavior in this thread?

I mean, I kind of agree. I just don't get what you're worked up about in this context.

1. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-cyber-nsa-tools-idUSKCN11S...

I responded to this without seeing the full context of your posts. It appears that the crux of your position is that dispute of Russian responsibility for Shadow Brokers is likely propaganda, and jwtadvice is advancing that position.

I think that the preponderance of the evidence suggests that the Shadow Brokers are Russian-aligned if not actual Russian agents. That doesn't mean that public criticism of this is propaganda.

A reasonable person could be unconvinced about this conclusion because almost no evidence has been revealed about the SB dump. Even U.S. officials haven't confirmed definitively [1] that the SB are Russian agents, though they say SB probably are.

Please note that jwtadvice didn't dispute that the Guccifer 2.0 actor was a Russia-aligned actor.

> That doesn't mean that public criticism of this is propaganda.

I completely agree. The problem is, and my point was, how does one distinguish a reasonable person speaking in good faith from propaganda, which by its nature is intended to appear as a reasonable person speaking in good faith - and which most often is spread not directly by propagandists but by reasonable people who trust the good faith of the propagandist?

Anyway, I think we talked about it plenty above; I just thought your well-made points deserved a response here.