Ask HN: I'm lost in my journey to become a developer

[goorley]

I’ve been having trouble on my path to become a professional software developer, and I would really love some help/advice. A little over a year ago I moved to NYC to attend a Full Stack Python Coding Bootcamp. I flew through the course, and upon finishing had bright eyes and a lot of enthusiasm to begin a career in tech. The teachers threw their support behind me, and let me know that I was a strong developer (and more importantly a fast learner) and should have no problem finding a job. Fast forward to now - I have been looking for a career full time since July 2016 with no luck. I’ve been interviewing a lot, but ultimately get passed over for people with more experience. I’m going into debt at this point, and don’t know where to turn or what to do to get my shot.

I know companies here are really pressing a CS degree - which I don’t have. I do have a BS in Petroleum Engineer, and have work experience as an engineer. I also managed a Oil & Gas service company in Africa for years before making this transition, so I have quality professional experience. I left my career to embark on this journey into technology, so I have proof of my passion and commitment to this change. I’m not sure where to turn or what to do at this point, but I know I want to be working in tech.

I have been a finalist for many jobs, but no offers to date. Some companies are great about going in another direction and giving feedback, and other companies give me none. Last month I interviewed at Foursquare - two phone interviews, a project, two more in person interviews - wait two weeks and receive a generic email (“While we felt your experience was great, it didn't quite align with what we're looking for at this time.”). I’ve sent emails asking for more feedback and received no replies.

If you have any thoughts as to what I can to do get my first job in technology, I would be grateful.

[stevenwu]

You only mentioned Foursquare as one of the companies you've applied to, so without more info from you I'm going to take a shot in the dark here: are you only applying for those types of companies that are very well known? It's pretty rare for your first job out of education (whether it's a degree, or a bootcamp) to be "SWE at <Company Your Friends Know>". There's a whole world of companies out there that aren't as sexy but can be amazing stepping stones to the job you want.

To add personal experience to this comment, I've worked at two places before landing such a "dream" job - a < 50 person startup, and a company with businesses around its satellites that employs ~5000 people but I guarantee your average citizen hasn't heard of it. Some former coworkers at that startup were there as their first job, and went on to work for Google/Palantir/themselves. These less sexy companies and startups are waiting for great applicants.

[goorley]

I only used Foursquare as an example because they are a "dream job" company. I've been trying for all kinds of companies, smaller start-ups included. I think I'd be great for a start-up due to my past work experience, but I've not had luck there.

[digikata]

Just a bit on my background so you know what perspective is behind my advice. I came from an Aerospace Engineering degree and transitioned early into Aerospace systems engineering and software, eventually moving to more traditional software positions (still systems oriented I guess, but different system domains).

It sounds like you're applying for web-industry type jobs which I think you should continue to apply for in your situation. However, with your background, you should have a great advantage for industry + software type positions which would play to your experience as well as your new skills. I would expand my search beyond just "software category" jobs, and search for companies which have products/services in in oil & gas, find companies in that sector, (also companies building software tools for that sector) then go look for listings on their individual websites to see if they have openings of software jobs (look for networking for friends who might be in that industry too - maybe an instance where Linkedin is very useful). I would suspect that there is a lot of software work for embedded, industrial controls, data collection, analysis, even project mgmt, calculation/coordination widget software in that field. I might even expand to searching companies looking chemical, and construction companies from what I can glean from the description of your experience.

What I'm terming "Industry" jobs here are likely culturally different than your standard HN software work, but even if it's not what you're aiming for over the long term, it might be a stepping stone to more "software" archetype software positions.

[DrNuke]

I strongly second this, you may be more lucky with your search by combining both of your expertises for industrial / petroleum / similar engineering jobs. Good luck!

[JSeymourATL]

> I have been a finalist for many jobs, but no offers to date. Some companies are great about going in another direction and giving feedback, and other companies give me none...

Understand that companies DO NOT give feedback. That's not their job. Especially when dealing with HR Flunkies and Recruiter Bozos. They regularly churn through tons of candidates. Time simply does not permit thoughtful, individual dialogue.

There is a numbers game aspect to a job search. Can you increase the number of targeted applications? Beyond job board posts, start emailing likely hiring managers direct.

Also, understand the importance of personal referrals. Increase your network in the Python space. Start attending Python Meetups, Conferences, Events, etc... Fortunately, there several in the NYC area > https://www.eventbrite.com/d/ny--new-york/python/ Also,> https://www.meetup.com/NY-Quantitative-Python-User-Group/

[goorley]

Understood. Just sucks when you go so far with them - and I reached out to the hiring managers for feedback, which is why I was hoping for more. I've been trying to target more, but also blasting. I take an approach of blast in the morning, and then target in the afternoon. I've attended many Python meetups, and my bootcamp was one that popped up for a lot for a lot of those. I was hoping their network would help me, but it has been nonexistent. I do need a better network, but I feel like my wheels are spinning from going to meetups and events like Techday last week.

[JSeymourATL]

> I take an approach of blast in the morning...

Try to take the emotion out of the equation. You can not control how companies will respond. Blasts have a low-hit ratio, huge time suck. Suggest contacting individual people you can help-- managers, directors, CIO's in companies that use Python. Linkedin search is excellent for sourcing these targets.

[soneca]

I am in a similar position (career transition at 37yo to software development), mostly self-taught through the internet (freeCodeCamp and building my own stuff following documentation and tutorials online).

I still haven't got a job, so I can't say I have a good answer for you. I am just speculating from a similar position.

I don't think I would even apply to fancy, well-known companies that lots of developers coming from strong branded college education in computer science. I am not diminishing myself, I believe I can deliver more than any young talent on a range of software development positions (not all of them, I think some places like security demand a more solid theoretical knowledge that a CS graduate has and I am not even close to having). I just think these companies have the luxury to nitpick and they value a good college and a young age more than anything that I have an edge on.

So, I am trying to find jobs on more 'humble' places that match the work environment I want, ie, companies with tech as a core product and a strong tech culture, where I can learn from more experienced developers. This leaves out agencies where software is seen as just an operational department and developers just have to endless do 'transform Photoshop in css+html' stuff.

As I am kind of focusing my learning in React and React is hyped right now, I am optimistic with my ability to land a job. But... I could be in the same position that you are now in a year! Who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[toexitthedonut]

>This leaves out agencies where software is seen as just an operational department and developers just have to endless do 'transform Photoshop in css+html' stuff.

I worked at a web agency before so I know how that is. If software is just a means to an end, what are they exactly selling if not software? Websites as a service, perhaps, but that still doesn't support the business model that focuses on hourly billing, that puts a perverse incentive for developers to produce less satisfactory results.

[NKCSS]

Hmm, that smiley looks like th3j35t3r; I'd be weary of copying it, since so many people are after him and would go to great lengths to harm him... from what you say, you don't fit the profile, but still...

[goorley]

Good luck with your search! Hopefully you find something soon. I know from my search that React is a good way to go.

[konradb]

The company I work for took on some people from a bootcamp recently so I can perhaps offer perspective from the other side. The final decision came down to personalities and life stage: we knew that hiring people with relatively shallow experience (not a criticism, just true relative to others in the company) was going to be, initially, a large time sink and investment in development of these individuals. So the decision boiled down to: once this person is productive, how long do we think they will stick around? If that time is shorter, do. they have the increased energy and great attitude to make up for it? Are we a momentary stepping stone for this person or do they want to learn what they can from us and jump off to bigger and better things quickly? The main decision was around this. Whether our investment in the person would yield a payoff.

Also a big consideration but not as much: What are their strategies for learning, and will those strategies withstand the forthcoming onslaught? What are their instincts when something doesn't work?

Hope that helps.

[ayb]

Have you worked with any recruiting agencies? I'm a big fan of Mondo - the folks there are great and have been incredibly helpful and responsive. Feel free to drop me a line if you want an intro. (I mainly work in Rails but I'm sure they can help you find something in Python.)

(There are a lot of great technical recruiters, but I've personally only used Mondo. I'm sure others have some they love as well.)

[goorley]

Yes, I've worked with some. They have gotten me some of my interviews with companies where I have been a finalist. I will check out Mondo, thanks for the tip!

[AlwaysRock]

Are you having "informational interviews"? Asking a engineer to coffee or for a 20 minute phone call, while scary, has the largest return on investment of any type of outreach I've seen. Basically your have to build out your network and then keep in touch with that network until one of those people have a role you would be good for.

Also you shouldn't expect companies to give you feedback. While its nice when companies do many avoid it for a number of reasons. The biggest issue I saw in the past was if specific feedback was given say, "You didn't implement x correctly in y problem" it opens the door to candidates responding with, "Yes I did" or arguing. I'm not saying that you would do that but it only has to happen once or twice for a manager to stop giving feedback.

[goorley]

Yes, I've had some informational interviews. I should probably do more following up with them as time moves on. That is great advice - I usually see if they have anything for me, and if no I move on. Will follow up now.

Also, I understand the no feedback policy, just really sucks when you go so far.

[goldenbeet]

In my experience there's two key pieces of landing a job that a lot of applicants don't put any emphasis on.

"Culture fit": In the startup world everyone is looking to hire people who fit their culture. They don't even necessarily have to know why they're doing it or what it ought to look like in an applicant, but they look for it anyways. So ways to make sure you're ticking this checkbox are making sure you're enthusiastic about coding and speak with excitement about what you're doing and the be excited about the company's core values. For example, most companies are consumer facing, so you need to get jazzed about providing the best user experience possible and be motivated by seeing people use your product and interacting with users and their feedback. The best advice I could give here is to make sure you do your research on the company, tailor your resume/cover letter/responses to match them, and just fake it till you make it.

Personal Projects: The other piece that applicants tend to not have (particularly people just entering the field) is solid portfolio work. One key aspect of that is open source contributions. Get excited by a framework or a library and not only become an expert on it, but get involved in the developer community and start contributing to the project on Github. The other important piece is projects that are real. Something that is original and actually solves a problem, something that people outside of your circle have used. Everyone and their mother has class assignment projects or online tutorial walkthroughs (kanbans, todo list, simple fetch from api and display, personal website). Only a very small fraction of people coming out of college or a bootcamp have a project that goes beyond the basics and teeters on being an actual product.

So my advice is to put more emphasis on those two aspects, make sure you're getting involved in the community online and in person via meetups (referrals are gold and trump just about anything), and avoid shotgunning for interviews (pick a few companies and focus on them).

[patwalls]

Keep going man it's a lot of luck involved. I graduated App Academy and I've heard of people who didn't get a job for over a year and then landed at Uber. Apply to 1000 companies, it'll happen.

[pseshadri]

I can give you a list of 400 Companies. Many will be hiring. If you cold email all of them, you will get a job.

[dsacco]

This is basically the worst way you can attempt to get a job. In the time you apply to 400 jobs with any serious attempt at a curated approach, you could be meeting directly with hiring managers and developing a network.

[goorley]

Hi pseshadri, I would love the list. I will take any lead I can get. My email is in my profile. Thank you!

[telebone_man]

I would suggest you look at some of the LinkedIN profiles of software developers at the kinds of businesses you want to work in. And observe the kinds of roles and businesses they started out in. You could even try reaching out to them and asking directly.

Good luck!

[taway_1212]

As an aside, what's wrong with petroleum engineering? Is it the drop in oil prices, or something wrong with the profession in general?

[goorley]

Nothing wrong with it - actually I wanted to eventually combine the two. I thought that due to the drop in oil price, now would be the right time to leave and gain the skills that would help me build tools for the oil industry in the future.

[dhruvkar]

Don't know where you're located or if you're open to relocation, but check out osisoft.com

They make software to handle real time data (since the 80s), and a majority of their clients are oil companies. I worked in IT department for a couple years. On their client support side, they hire a lot of chemical engineers, and I'm sure petroleum engineers fall in the same category for them.

If you have a resume, I can forward it to a contact of mine. email in profile.

[ShGao1123]

The company looks exciting, because I want to get into IIoT industry to build data pipelines / analytic platforms.

I come from a mechanical engineering background.

Is it ok I send my resume to you? Thanks.

[dhruvkar]

Sure.

[pacaro]

What have you built between finishing your Bootcamp and now?

[goorley]

Several web applications, three of which are served. Some websites. A lot of coding challenges - some take a few hours, some days.

[pacaro]

Good! It's worth pushing that as much as, maybe more than, the bootcamp.

Do you have a mentor? Someone in the industry who can give you feedback? There may be something simple that you can change

[goorley]

I have a few people in my life who have been giving me advice. I've been given mostly minor resume changes, and then "you should find something soon". Most people I've gotten advice from sympathize because it is difficult getting the first job - but also tell me they are shocked that I haven't found anything yet. I'm always trying to change what I'm doing if it can help.

[pacaro]

If you have been growing/honing your skill set, is your code available on github? Has anyone reviewed it for you?

One of the challenges with growing in isolation is the lack of feedback from peers.