[yankeeracer73]

I'll probably get downvoted for this, but I'm curious when the "Apple is a dictatorship and I'm taking my toys and going home" blog posts will stop making it to the top of HN. Isn't this storyline getting a little monotonous?

[jokermatt999]

>I'll probably get downvoted for this,

Can we please not use that phrase here? I hate it over at reddit, and I hate seeing it here even more. Just state your opinion, regardless of whether or not you feel like you'll be upvoted.

[mattmaroon]

It's a bit of reverse-psychology that is meant to keep you from getting downvoted. More accurate would be "please don't downvote me for this" but that would also probably be less effective.

I'm pretty sure that that phrase actually does serve its intended purpose. I have nothing but a hunch and anecdotes to base that on though.

[wildmXranat]

Karma value over substance is a bitch of a hurdle to get over. Still, you are correct.

[yankeeracer73]

Since we aren't all standing in a room having a real conversation, the only way I can tell if people are going to agree or disagree with me is an up or down vote. "I'll probably get downvoted for this" is another way of saying "the predominant opinion here is x but i'm going to state y." My intent wasn't purposely to avoid downvotes (or get more upvotes,) but point taken.

[anamax]

> Since we aren't all standing in a room having a real conversation, the only way I can tell if people are going to agree or disagree with me is an up or down vote.

Apart from some tense confusion, yes.

> I'll probably get downvoted for this" is another way of saying "the predominant opinion here is x but i'm going to state y."

Yes, that is another way to say that. The point is that saying that gets annoying.

If you're about to say something for which you feel the need to apologize, don't say it. Double that if the apology is a pose. (No, it's not polite or "civil".)

Respect the readers.

[smokinn]

Respect the readers is a good point. By starting with that sentence you're essentially saying:

Before I say what I think might add to the conversation here's me talking about how I care more about my karma than the conversation itself.

It isn't something anyone but you cares about so why not just leave it out?

[jokermatt999]

The upvote/downvote arrows aren't for disagreement, they're for adds to the discussion/does not add to the discussion. That's the proper reddiquette at reddit as well. Unfortunately, it's generally ignored there, but Hacker News is usually better.

[brodie]

I don't see an official guideline about this, but I've seen pg mention many times that he doesn't have a problem with downvoting in disagreement.

See: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347

[jokermatt999]

I stand corrected and surprised. I also note that underneath both of those posts are people saying that they disagree with this policy, both with more upvotes than PG. Perhaps it's best if the community agrees that downvotes should not mean disagreement?

This whole discussion is getting rather off topic though. Does someone want to make a meta-topic for this, or should we leave it alone?

[stonemetal]

No, the general way to disagree is to post a reply much like this one that says I disagree.

[dhimes]

I disagree (but that's not a reason to downvote in my book--writing something interesting enough to make me want to comment usually gets an automatic upvote).

Giving legitimate groups a legitimate voice on this particular forum is a way to keep some leverage against the Apples and Googles who feel like they can do whatever they want with your apps/accounts and don't have to answer to anybody.

An isolated blog about a developer in Italy (even a famous one) is not likely to be effective-- until it gets picked up here. Then you can be damn sure that important players are going to see it, and this can pressure a company to clearly explain itself or effect a remedy.

I understand this song is getting to be old, but we still need them on the site (and, if worthy, upvoted).

[raganwald]

Is the purpose of Hacker News to "Act as a PR tool for forcing corporations to do what we want rather than doing what they feel is in their self interest?"

If so, I'm ready to write a blog post whining about how HN doesn't do what I want and why I'm going to stop participating. I read HN to find articles that "Gratify my intellectual curiosity." That especially includes "Posts about new and interesting phenomena."

Proprietary platform vendors doing stuff that is not in the best interests of one, a few, or even many of their symbiotic developers is not a new and interesting phenomenon, and I find nothing in this post that adds value to any discussion about the relative risks and rewards of sharecropping in the iOS ecosystem.

Nor do I consider "data" to be the plural of "anecdote." Seeing one, a few, or many such posts doesn't add value to a decision I might make about developing for iOS. The dynamics of business are such that people are far more likely to whine about how unfair Apple is than to publish how much money they're making. Likewise, a whine is far more likely to attract votes on a site like HN because of the emotional dynamics of link bait.

I have nothing against the post or the fact that it may be interesting to many people on this site. But that doesn't make it Hacker News as described in the guidelines:

http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

That being said...

  Please don't submit comments complaining that
  a submission is inappropriate for the site. If
  you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it 
  by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" 
  link. (Not all users will see this; there is a 
  karma threshold.) If you flag something, please 
  don't also comment that you did.

Mea Culpa.

[dhimes]

Proprietary platform vendors doing stuff that is not in the best interests of one, a few, or even many of their symbiotic developers is not a new and interesting phenomenon

I find it interesting. Feel free to skip those articles.

Nor do I consider "data" to be the plural of "anecdote." Seeing one, a few, or many such posts doesn't add value to a decision I might make about developing for iOS

Cute and oft-cited phrase, often used as in "my sciene-fu is stronger than your sciene-fu," but it misses an important part of science: early phenomenological and empirical data are important to show people where to look. An anecdotal episode of anthrax being inhibited by bread mold indicates to the intelligent mind that there might be something worth pursuing.

When I see these articles I absolutely start looking in that direction for irregularities. I suspect a lot of us do.

[raganwald]

> I find it interesting.

Note the expression "_new_ and interesting." I find articles about JQuery programming interesting as well. That doesn't make them Hacker News, and that's why I don't post them here and then tell you to skip them if you don't find them interesting.

> early phenomenological and empirical data are important...

Whose case are you arguing here, yours or mine? Early suggests new. These posts are not new or early, they are old and I do not see anything new in this one. And again, this is not empirical data.

I welcome someone investigating the matter and posting data such as a comparison of the number of new apps in the app store to the number being withdrawn, the number of new android developers vs. the number of new iOS developers, and so on. I would find such things interesting and useful.

If there is something new or early in this post, please point me to it so I may retract my objection. My mind is open to the possibility that it adds something to the myriad of similar rants posted here and elsewhere in the last year or more, I just need someone to show me what it is.

p.s. I disagree with your conclusion with respect to this post, but still upvoted your reply. I agree that when such things present a new direction for investigation, they are Hacker News as I prefer it. But at the end of the day... I am only one person with an opinion on how to interpret the guidelines.

[dhimes]

I believe I understand your points and I respectfully disagree (even over the term "new"), but we should probably leave it at that.

[raganwald]

If you understand me and I understand you, then we've both done a good job, "mission accomplished." Thanks for taking the time to explain yourself clearly and civilly.

[abyssknight]

I think the key thing to remember with these posts is that you never hear about when an app does get approved. From what I understand, and Steve Jobs stated at WWDC, it is very unusual to have an application rejected. Most times, its a simple fix too.

On top of that, there's HTML 5 based applications, which don't require approval. Half of these rejected applications could have been written in straight HTML and no one would have bothered them about an approval process.

[mcav]

HTML5 apps are inferior due to lack of an iTunes-integrated payment system for them.

[cmelbye]

That's a separate problem, but there are easy payment systems to integrate with you app if you need to charge people,

[axod]

Only if you rely on payment directly from customer as your business model.

[WiseWeasel]

HTML5 apps are not a valid replacement for native development. There are many device capabilities that are only accessible through the native development SDK, such as anything requiring access to various hardware, or that needs to integrate with data on the phone. Even if half the rejected applications could be written in HTML5, that still leaves the other half. I'm sorry, but that's not an acceptable solution. I should be the one to determine whether an app can run on my device, not my vendor.

[jhancock]

No reason to downvote you as its an opportunity for education. Not just for you but for almost everyone on both sides of this debate distracted and not focused on the core problem. The root of this matter is the FCC rules which prohibit tampering with devices. The only devices the FCC seems to allow unlocking are "dumbphones". The smart stuff gets special protection by laws that were originally put in place for DRM and national security.

The U.S. is building economies around government sponsored anti-competitive measures. Apple along with just about every device manufacturer and cellular carrier petitions the FCC to keep these regulations in place.

A good chunk of Apple's current market value assumes the government will keep these rules in place. Without these rules, Apple's developer agreements and cut of app and ad revenue would be normalized by competition; real free-market competition. The longer we wait to address this core problem, the worse it gets and the harder it is to move away from. Can you imagine the calls a senator or FCC insider will get when this problem finally is forced on their agenda? The lobbyist for state teachers' unions will call to let them know that removing the protections may cause Apple shares to drop 35% causing the union's pension fund to lose $20 million overnight causing a cut in insurance supplements supplied by the union. Removing the protections would have incalculable network effects.

[neurotech1]

From what I understand, most smart phones have a baseband processor, separate from the application processor.

The FCC should allow application hacking eg. Android, but still restrict the baseband processor code as designed.

[mechanical_fish]

The blog posts will stop rising once a sufficient number of people figure out that trolling the App Store reviewers and getting banned, even temporarily, is a great way to generate free publicity.

Then the ratio of people crying wolf to legit complaints will grow and grow until we all get bored to death.