[s_kilk]

> A well designed linux laptop, with no driver issues, good build quality, that doesn't sacrifice performance for thinness? That's what I'm missing.

It exists, it's the Thinkpad T-series.

I don't get all this hand-wringing over the need for hypothetical great Linux machines when we have Thinkpads available right now.

[Lio]

Thinkpads are great but if I buy a Thinkpad T-series laptop I'm forced to buy Windows with it.

Also it's not supported by the manufacturer. Thinkpads have great support from the Linux community but Lenovo doesn't officially guarantee its use (I would be happy to hear if I'm wrong on that).

[ekianjo]

Dont they have a contract with RedHat to ensure compatibility?

[Hydraulix989]

Yes, in my experience, the only thing that doesn't work is the fingerprint reader:

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Validity-Finge...

[cacarr]

Indeed. Everything works on my X1 Carbon running Arch (via Antergos), except the fingerprint reader.

[johndotsun]

Thinkpads are great if your standards for screen quality are incredibly low. I can't speak for the ones released in the last couple years but seemingly all of the older ones have garbage tier screens. My T430 has a screen that is at best about as good as the screen that came with my 2009 Asus netbook.

[clarry]

My T460s definitely has a garbage tier screen. And garbage tier trackpad. The trackpoint feels like garbage too. And I had to replace the keyboard once because it was garbage and broke.

[kuschku]

You can buy Thinkpads also preloaded with free DOS. (Usually a lot cheaper)

[ac29]

How? Hasn't been an option on the last 2 thinkpads I bought. Just went and tried to customize a T470 and nope, still have to get Windows.

[kuschku]

If you're a student, you can sometimes still get it.

[vertex-four]

You probably can as a business customer? Not sure.

[bluehazed]

You used to be able to, I don't think you can any longer.

[gamache]

T450 owner here, running Ubuntu 16.04 LTS Desktop. My machine hangs when I unplug it from the Thinkpad dock. X rendering glitches are an hourly occurrence and X crashes weekly. In laptop mode, the trackpad handling is not up to snuff either. (I guess if I wanted all those features, I could just install Windows.)

[haspok]

You will most definitely want a recent kernel (16.04 ships with 4.4 - you want 4.8 or later). Also check the Arch wiki about Intel video to see if you can fix your problems with X (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Intel_graphics), eg. switching from SNA to UXA.

[gamache]

Thanks for the link -- I'm still hanging when unplugging from the dock, but switching to UXA and disabling 3D accel seems to have quieted the glitches down.

I did try some newer kernels a few months ago, but then my wifi stopped working. But this should not be necessary when running a flagship LTS desktop Linux on extremely common hardware from two years ago! I expected more.

[ac29]

Linux hardware support often takes years to mature -- for example, the graphics hardware on my Haswell laptop has seen steady improvements despite being years old. I would strongly recommend against using a LTS linux release from around the time your computer was released. Its just going to be too old. Try Ubuntu 17.04, or take the jump and just use Arch. I use Arch on all my work and home machines, without issue. Maybe twice a year requires 5-10 minutes of extra work during an upgrade to ensure a package update works.

[pedrocr]

>I would strongly recommend against using a LTS linux release from around the time your computer was released. Its just going to be too old. Try Ubuntu 17.04

No point in doing that. Just use the hardware enablement stack. It gets you the 17.04 kernel/X/etc over the LTS base. Best of both worlds.

[gamache]

I'd never heard of the Hardware Enablement Stack. I am going to try this when I get near my Thinkpad, thanks!

[gamache]

For what it's worth, I tried a few different OSes, including Ubuntu 16.10 (which was the latest at the time), before settling on 16.04 LTS (which was released a year after the laptop came out). I plan to try 17.04 when I get some time, but I also expect to be disappointed. I got about 10min into an Arch install before laughing myself into a coma -- I've seen smoother Unix installs from the 1990s.

But I will reiterate: this is clown shoes. Expecting this kind of effort from desktop users is hostile.

[ac29]

I'll agree the the Arch installer could be better, but its not difficult, especially having done it a few times. The install starts pretty barebones and then you add on what you need - annoying if you want a 1-click to fully setup GNOME (or whatever) desktop, but perfect for people like me. You also get the benefit of learning how all the parts of a working Linux desktop come together.

Personally I find all-in-one installers annoying. I find I have to spend a ton of time removing crap I don't want and replacing it with what I do want. It would take me probably as much time or more to install and configure Ubuntu as Arch would.

You might want to check out Fedora too -- I hear the latest release is pretty great. Arch based distributions like Antergos or Manjaro might be good to check out if your only hangup with Arch is the arcane installer.

[ac29]

Re: the X issues... dump the Intel X driver for the modesetting driver (you will want a recent kernel for this). Made a world of difference on my Intel laptop.

[sidm83]

That's not the case always. My first cheap thinkpad worked great, but the 2nd expensive one (T440p) has bad driver support for Wifi (on current and last Ubuntu LTS). Connections are unstable and throughput is ~0.3x of the dongle I use (both 2.4Ghz 802.11n). Hardware - Realtek RTL8192EE PCIe.

[nissimk]

Always opt for Intel hardware. They have Linux device driver developers on staff. Sometimes the newest chips are not supported, but they always release something within a few months.

[sidm83]

Yeah that's what I wanted too but unfortunately the supplier for my company did not have one.

[bdavisx]

What dongle do you use? I've got a Clevo laptop that otherwise works great w/ Ubuntu, but the wifi is pretty bad.

[bdavisx]

In case anyone is reading this from a search, I thought I should clarify, the wifi sucks in Ubuntu or Win10, so it doesn't appear related to linux.

[sidm83]

Oh OK. My setup is dual boot but I've never had patience enough to spend enough time to test on Win. Just crappy hardware/drivers from Realtek then!

[sidm83]

I use a TP-Link TL-WN823N. Did not require any 3rd party driver installs, just plug and play.

[Arnt]

Which T is closest to a Macbook Air 11"?

There are many fine linux laptops in the desk-home type, 14"-17". The selection isn't so fine if you're looking for something that'll fit in your lap on the plane or train, and have 8G of RAM. Or at least 4.

[haspok]

You want an XPS 13 then.

I just used mine on a Ryanair flight a few days ago, cramped in the middle seat for 3 hours. The XPS 13 fit perfectly on the very small folding table, the top of the screen just sticking under the bottom of the pocket-thing that is always full of useless flyers.

I believe it has the same footprint as a MBA 11. And of course, I'm running Linux on it :)

[mmrezaie]

XPS 13 is amazing and with Linux support it is fine, but that keyboard though. You need to test it to see if it fits for you.

[signal11]

I use a Thinkpad X230 - it has a 12.5" display with 8 or 16GB RAM. The latest model appears to be X270 -- same size display.

http://www3.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/Thi...

[jeremyjh]

X1 Carbon series works great with Linux. Its a little bigger than 11", but still very light and slim and a nice display. I use a Gen 1 (2012) with 8GB ram. Installed originally Ubuntu 12.04, upgraded to 14.04 and 16.04. All worked great. I presently run Arch on it which was also easy to install and works great.

[restalis]

You just trampled over "doesn't sacrifice performance for thinness". And using on my lap in a plane or whatever, like maybe I would when laying on my couch, was never even considered. Are you sure it's a practical measure to judge by a product and isn't just an Apple-tailored one?

[Arnt]

No I didn't, I'm saying that if a laptop doesn't have an acceptable form factor, its performance (or even existence) doesn't matter. I'm also saying that models in the T series do not offer form factors suitable for everyone, contrary to the GP's claim, and offering the Macbook Air 11" as an example of the kind of form factor not offered.

[tonyedgecombe]

My wife has an X240, something in that series is equivalent to the Air. To be honest I would just go for the Apple, we have had quite a few problems with the Lenovo.

[ac29]

What problems? I have the same computer and love it.

[tonyedgecombe]

The worst one is if I pick it up by the left side it crashes.

[ac29]

Ack. That's roughly where the CPU is, I wonder if some of the solder balls are cracking and it needs a reflow. I've never had to deal with Lenovo service, but it might be worth contacting them -- that is definitely a hardware issue.

[tonyedgecombe]

Looking around the internet it seems a common problem with that model, we just pick it up by the right side.

[mciancia]

Maybe x260?

[dagw]

It exists, it's the Thinkpad T-series.

Does Optimus work the way I'd expect it to these days?

[leggomylibro]

Ehhhh....

Bumblebee has kind of fallen into a 'not officially supported' state as of xenial, but it will work if you are willing to spend a bit of time cajoling it by messing with drivers and blacklists and config files.

Nvidia also has an official solution now called 'nvidia-prime,' but it's awful. You have to log out and back in to change which card you're using, so you can't just spin up the discrete card for one or two taxing programs in your workflow.

But it can work the way you'd expect it to, if that's what you're asking.

[mmrezaie]

I had bumblebee on my precision 5520, and it works fine. You need to meddle with it a little bit, but after that everything works fine. Actually, I loved it since I could have my X11 memory space controlled by Intel and my Cuda application development wouldn't have messed up the X11 while running. Something you expect to not happen, but happens all the time.

Bumblebee and optirun can be better, but it is usable right now.

[pkolaczk]

Does it allow to connect external displays? Last time I checked bumblebee worked almost fine, but it didn't notice I connected an external display to DP hardwired to dGPU, and dGPU stayed powered-off. I got through a few workarounds for that, and even managed to get something incorrectly displayed, but nothing really worked like it should, so I gave up and I'm using this ugly nvidia-prime thing and just remember to set it in "performance mode" before using my laptop with external displays.

[mmrezaie]

Well, it works fine when I use HDMI for the external display. I have not tested the DisplayPort.

[adamc]

Don't they have poor touchpads?

[s_kilk]

Nah, they're really good I find, maybe not as good as the apple glass trackpad, but certainly not bad. Plus, they have the awesome physical buttons along the top, combined with the trackpoint.