[pcarolan]

Good point about Feynman. The only thing I've found to work is trying everything until something starts to work. Of course, you start with the books to get ideas for what to try next. Ive got one of those kids that bounces off the walls. The older I get though the less I care. Some kids just can't sit still. Kids are society's problem and when we don't build spaces for them to be kids, its gonna happen.

[xherberta]

> Kids are society's problem

Respectfully, I'm sad for children whose parents think society is going to look out for them. Every kid deserves a couple of people who take personal responsibility for their behavior and well-being.

I have a pretty high tolerance for kids being bouncy and boisterous, but it's always nice to see parents giving the sort of information that helps them become considerate:("Look, that woman's trying to read. She wants it quiet!" -or- "That lamp could break - can you find a safer place to bounce your ball?")

Another big issue that isn't always mentioned is diet. A kid who eats a "normal" amount of sugar, corn syrup, and zero-nutrient high-carb products will understandably be going berserk on the outside because they're on a blood sugar roller coaster on the inside.

As an alternative perspective, I think that in France "kids are society's problem" doesn't mean building special places where they can run rampant, but training them to appreciate the culture and society they're inheriting. French kindergarteners spend 90 minutes sitting down to a white-table-cloth four course meal each day during school. This is done because it's considered essential for them to learn the table manners and appreciation of the cuisine that will allow them a lifetime of enjoyable, civilized dining.

(I think the creation of lots of "good", dignified jobs in the kindergarten-chef field is a wonderful side benefit, as opposed to cafeteria workers in the US who can hardly feel fulfilled while dumping bags of frozen nuggets onto trays.)

[gommm]

> French kindergarteners spend 90 minutes sitting down to a white-table-cloth four course meal each day during school. This is done because it's considered essential for them to learn the table manners and appreciation of the cuisine that will allow them a lifetime of enjoyable, civilized dining.

I wish that were true... They do get a 3 course meal (appetizer, main dish and desert) but it doesn't last 90 minutes and it's not a white table cloth meal... That's embellishing the reality a little bit. There was more decorum than a self service (we were served the food at the table as a kid in kindergarten in primary school) and the food quality is definitely better than most countries in primary schools* but that's about it.

As a kid in kindergarten though we would be told off if we were too boisterous during the meal so I guess that kind of qualifies in term of table manner.

That said, I did find that kids in the US tended to be louder and less well educated than I was used to. The same applies for kids in Japan below the age of 5 (parents there have a laissez faire altitude during the early ages).

(*) Middle schools and high schools are another story. Lunch is a self service concept (so no one brings the meal to the table) and the quality of lunch is lower (it was downright atrocious when I was in middle school to the point where I would usually skip most lunches). This may have changed though.

[xherberta]

I appreciate the correction!

[pcarolan]

I wasn't making the point that society was in charge of my kids, rather that society needs to be tolerant of kids nature and adapt to it to some degree. I can get my kid to sit still, but its not his natural state so I don't often do it. I am glad that there are places you can take your kid to join and indoctrinate them into cultures you want to identify with. I am glad there are options. I would not choose french civility. I would probably more want my kid to eat a big burger with his hands and get ketchup all over his face at an outdoor bbq. God bless choices.

[59nadir]

I don't think other people should necessarily have to accept that you prefer not to keep your child reasonably quiet, as an example, in public. Understanding that kids will be kids doesn't mean understanding that you as a parent prefer not to teach your kid how to act in public.

It might seem harsh, but you really do paint the image of someone who thinks it's fine for his kid to keep screaming and running around in public, and having people just accept that that's how it is. I don't know how it is where you live, but neither in my home country or the country I live in now would this be considered fine for a parent to think. In my home country I think the general sentiment would be "At least have the decency to be ashamed of your performance as a parent" and a little bit less harsh where I am now.

You can think the above cultural sentiment is harsh, but it's a culture based on valuing the collective very highly and respecting it more than you value even yourself.

[dkural]

Adults aren't quiet "in public" either. While I do believe in boundaries, as long as kids aren't physically bothering strangers, they have every right to run around and make noise in public as the street musician, the loudly speaking teenager, and the arguing couple.

This doesn't mean a parent is not teaching the kid, it is that their conception of how a kid ought to behave in public is different from yours, thus they have nothing to be 'ashamed' of in their performance. Indeed, I often feel bad for the kid when a parent values other people's judgment more than their child's perfectly valid desire to explore their surroundings.

[zaptheimpaler]

Sometimes, the majority is wrong. There are many kids who might be hyperactive due to a quirk of their mind/body - say ADHD or a hyper fast metabolism. People don't see these things and expect kids who are really different to be the same as the rest. For that kind of a kid, the value tradeoff between keeping still and not disturbing anyone else vs. not can be very different if they cannot express themselves.

Society ROUTINELY throws minorities under the bus because we have simply accepted that a small inconvenience for a majority could not possibly be worth paying if it helps a few people a lot. I think the cultural sentiment you're talking about is really just "agree with everyone else, or else risk exclusion" - the usual extortion. The same reasoning can justify much worse things. Humans are very social and children are partly raised by the society around them - people deny it because they don't want to have to change.

Just to be clear, I'm really against this because the parent said he can keep his child still, but its not the child's natural state. And you go and call him a "bad parent" for not stifling his kid. Bullshit.

[59nadir]

> the parent said he can keep his child still, but its not the child's natural state.

The child can be in its natural state in the privacy of their own home, not in public where it's a bother for everyone else. If we were talking about a child with real issues that could be blamed on disorders, it wouldn't just be about "natural state" and whatnot, and as you say the parent is able to keep the child quiet, proving it's just him preferring to not be considerate to his environment.

> And you go and call him a "bad parent" for not stifling his kid. Bullshit.

Screaming and running around in public doesn't foster any desirable or productive behavior on the part of the child, as far as I can imagine. I don't think it'll ever be in the favor of the child. All it really does is inconvenience people that didn't ask to deal with the noise of the child.

Edit: I want to add that I think there's a lot more that goes into being a bad parent, by the way. The only thing this "Society will have to adapt to me" behavior shows is a general lack of respect for other people and putting your convenience before them.

[pcarolan]

I would say that your sentiment encapsulates the attitude I disagree with. Public is, by definition, public. As in, for us all. Your norms are valid, but so are mine as well as my child's. I could make the argument that if you want solitude, you should visit the library where this norm is agreeably enforced by all, but I wouldn't. What I'd say is that the next time you are around a child who you feel is disruptive, go up to the parent and say, "I don't mean to be rude, but I was sitting here reading this book before you got here, would you mind asking your child to play more quietly or play somewhere else". I promise you I would not be offended by this (as a parent very little offends me anymore). Just don't expect the default state of a child to be child in church.

[DanBC]

You've fallen into the very common trap of taking what someone else says (it's not my child's natural state) and then putting the worst interpretation on it (it's fine for his kid to keep screaming and running around in public)

You can see there's a wide range of behaviour starting at fidgety before you get to running around and screaming.

[pcarolan]

I certainly wouldn't and didn't go as far to say my kid goes around screaming in public. That's quite a leap from what I was saying. What I said was that at the pediatrician's office, my kid runs around and plays rather than sitting still with his hands in his lap. Kids at play -- laughing, running, exploring, being curious, sometimes shouting -- are a beautiful thing that some find annoying and the point is to remember that we were and are all children.

[alltakendamned]

> French kindergarteners spend 90 minutes sitting down to a white-table-cloth four course meal each day during school.

No they don't, I'm not quite sure where you could've got the idea ?

[postmeta]

table-cloth is embellishment, but four-course does seem to be part of the system: https://karenlebillon.com/french-school-lunch-menus/

[ckarmann]

Four-course sounds grandiose but it's nothing more than a little carrot salad, a meal, a little piece of cheese and a yogurt (and some bread), that you get on your meal tray. No kid spend 90 minutes eating that; they rather spend their time playing during the time of lunch break. So it's top 20 minutes swallowing everything (or half of it actually) as fast of possible.

[77pt77]

Is this not standard almost everywhere?

If anything, the soup is missing.

[77pt77]

Good to know. Next thing the he was going to say they started educating children on the pleasures of France's great wine production while in kindergarten.

[imesh]

Why we supposed to copy everything the French do? Aren't they regarded as rude? That implies​ not being considerate...

[gommm]

In term of perceived rudeness of French people, I think a lot of it is communication barrier (it's better now and it's changing but French people on average suck at speaking English and are self conscious about it) and the fact that Parisians are universally seen by French people as being ever so slightly snobbish and rude.

[greggman]

The sugar = hyper kids myth has long been debunked.

Instead what studies have found is if the parents believe their kids ate sugar they'll believe their kids are hyper even when the kids were actually given a placebo.

https://www.google.com/?q=does+sugar+make+kids+hyper

[VLM]

Its not controversial that diabetic behavior is influenced by blood sugar levels.

Studies used to exclude diabetic / prediabetic / obese kids because there were not many of them in the 70s before corn syrup.

Now of course over 1/5 of kids are obese or whatever definition, so once that legacy exclusion is eliminated...

[sgustard]

Teaching kids to sit for a 90-minute fancy meal sounds like the height of aristocratic folly. Didn't the French Revolution stamp this out? I'd be in favor of my kids learning to cook such a meal, though.

[pcmaffey]

I prefer to think that kids are society's solution.

[enkid]

This is a great idea.

[lacampbell]

Kids are society's problem

Did you consider consulting society first before foisting such a responsibility on us?

[TheOtherHobbes]

Society is also society's problem. Kids are just part of that.

[sgustard]

Um, the raising of children is literally the thing that allows a civilization to continue.

[lacampbell]

Um, like, so is food production and uh air.

I'm not responsible for those either, last I checked.

[nstart]

Going to be pedantic. With air, yes you are responsible. Even with food, our food habits determine the market and the market seems to treat the environment like poop to bring about all kinds of food that we want. So yes. Yes we are responsible.

[thomasfedb]

Who do you suppose is responsible for air?

[pcarolan]

Yes. Turns out kids are part of society too.

[cmdrfred]

I don't see too many dads at sporting events proclaiming "that's societies boy!"

[koolba]

Sure you do, but only when it's the other team and they're losing.