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by georgespencer 3357 days ago
The naivety on HN is staggering sometimes.

Imagine your parents give you a $10 loan to start a lemonade stand. You think you need six years to make them an above market return on their investment of 2x.

You're gonna buy cups, lemons, sugar, and water.

In the first year you think you're going to spend $3 and make $0.

So you have $7 in the bank.

In the second year you think you're gonna spend $2, and make $1.

So you have $6 in the bank.

In the third year you think you're gonna spend $6, and make $4.

So you have $4 in the bank.

In the fourth year you think you're gonna spend $6, and make $6.

So you still have $4 in the bank.

In the fifth year you think you're gonna spend $6 and make $10.

And now you're profitable. In the sixth year you spend $6 and make $50. You pay back 2x your parents' money.

As long as you were hitting your targets, that loan looks like smart business from you and your parents are pleased that their investment outperformed the market and generated a huge return.

If you had trouble hitting your targets, or needed to raise more money unexpectedly, your parents might have said that they'd want a higher return or more security (equity) in the business. But if you're executing on your plan, then that's not gonna happen.

Businesses operate with debt all the time. Some businesses are lossmaking for a long time. Some businesses are lossmaking on billions of dollars of revenue. They have high central costs. They have high R&D costs. They have marketing strategies which require them to subsidise entry-level products and upsell.

The business is healthy provided the following things are true:

1. They've agreed a strategy and milestones with their investors and board,

2. They are hitting those milestones by executing on that strategy.

3. They aren't running out of money ahead of schedule, or running out of money on specific instruments ahead of schedule (for example they have debt financing with Goldman which I'm assuming is being used to acquire smaller companies or subsidise driver fares since that would be expensive to do out of equity).

4. The investors are prepared to honour their agreement to fund the company and truly believe in the milestones and objectives the board has voted on.

Uber has raised $15 billion to date.

In 2012 it lost $20m, in 2013 $15m, in 2014 it lost around $650m, in 2015 it lost $1.5bn, in 2016 it lost $2.8bn.

The business has burned $5bn give or take, or 33% of its total capital raise to date.

Let's say that the losses are understated and they've actually lost closer to $7bn.

They have ~$8bn in the bank or on credit. They have a team of 6,700 which let's say is 45% engineering, R&D, product and the remainder have a linear relationship to the busyness and scale of the business.

They don't have to think about raising money until the middle or end of next year. They could cut their workforce if they needed to get to profitability quickly for some reason.

You or I might not be comfortable running a business with a $2.8bn loss, but nobody on here bats an eye when a YC company loses a a million dollars on a couple of million of revenue with a few million more in the bank. But as soon as it's a b and not an m, people lose their minds.

5 comments

The naiveté on HN is staggering sometimes.

Imagine your parents give you a 10 dollar loan to start a lemonade stand.

It costs you $3 to buy the lemons, sugar, water, and cups to make 10 cups of lemonade, that you sell for ten cents each.

In the first day you spend $3 and make $1. In the second day you spend 3 more dollars and make one dollar. In the third day you spend $3 and make another $1. In the fourth day you again spend $3 and make $1. At this point you now have $2 remaining.

On the fifth day a miracle happens and your mom gives you another 10 dollars, so you make and sell more lemonade. But you're concerned now so you ask all of your customers why they're buying your lemonade. They tell you that the only reason is the price, it's such cheap lemonade! If it were 2x more expensive they might still buy it, but certainly not at 3x.

And then what happens 4 days later?

Uber doesn't have a business model, they have a house of cards. They can't make money continuing to operate the way they do now, fares don't cover their operating costs, even if you factor out costs of "building" or "expansion". Their paths to success are either forcing everyone out of business by undercutting them and causing everyone else to go bankrupt, after which they can raise their prices back to the old market rates; or, somehow managing to get self-driving taxis on the market in the next 5 years so they can take driver compensation out of the equation.

This is nonsense I'm afraid.

I was demonstrating to OP that even if he is concerned by the losses Uber is making, and doesn't consider $3bn of losses on $6bn of revenue to be "healthy", it doesn't matter if the plan and the numbers are headed in the right way as far as investors are concerned.

> On the fifth day a miracle happens and your mom gives you another 10 dollars

This is precisely my point. This does not happen (except at huge economic cost to the company and its founders) unless you are demonstrating a plan which you are executing on.

> Uber doesn't have a business model.

Yes, it does. You may not like it, and you may think it's stupid and you know better than the people who put $15bn into it, but it does have a business model.

> They can't make money continuing to operate the way they do now, fares don't cover their operating costs, even if you factor out costs of "building" or "expansion".

Really? A 15% price increase = Uber is profitable[1], and you don't think they could generate a commensurate margin shift from losing central cost? Get rid of the team working on driverless and it's a profitable business.

> Their paths to success are either forcing everyone out of business by undercutting them

Yep.

> somehow managing to get self-driving taxis on the market

Yep

> or simply continuing to build huge volume, as they have been, and then cutting their central costs back to achieve profitability

Oh, you didn't suggest that much easier path to profitability which they could execute on tomorrow. Weird.

[1] https://twitter.com/naval/status/853033099101323264

15% of the $6.5bn revenue is $0.975bn, around one third of the net loss.
As noted elsewhere on this page, Uber "revenue" is not the full price of the trip - drivers are paid first for most products (pool works differently).
This is the much better analogy for the Uber business model.
> or, somehow managing to get self-driving taxis on the market in the next 5 years so they can take driver compensation out of the equation.

Only if nobody beats them to it and offers self-driving taxis before they do.

But there is no guarantee at all that you will ever turn a profit. That lemonade stand of yours might spend more than it makes for longer than your loan will sustain you. Which would require you to obtain another loan and so on. How many loans would it take before you would say: Maybe I really should start to make a profit on every glass of lemonade? Or maybe you'd say: What a bummer, Joe from next door has also started a lemonade business, I wished he wouldn't subsidize his lemonade so much because I can't compete with him and his parents are wealthier than mine so they can keep that up longer.

It's not always a happy ending in the lemonade business.

> But there is no guarantee at all that you will ever turn a profit.

That's correct. And that's why most of your parents' money is in more stable investments. But if yours comes off, then they get a great return!

> That lemonade stand of yours might spend more than it makes for longer than your loan will sustain you.

That's also true. And if that happens, your parents don't have to put bad money after good. That's why it's important that you say what you're going to deliver, and if you deliver it, then they can believe you're on course. If you think you need $40, and you ask for $10 today, then they'll be happy to give you the $30 in 3 years when you need to open more lemonade stands on other streets.

> Which would require you to obtain another loan and so on. How many loans would it take before you would say: Maybe I really should start to make a profit on every glass of lemonade?

That's the point I'm making: your parents and you have an agreement and a plan. If you're sticking to that plan and on course, then we'll give you however many loans we discussed or anticipated you'd need.

> Or maybe you'd say: What a bummer, Joe from next door has also started a lemonade business, I wished he wouldn't subsidize his lemonade so much because I can't compete with him and his parents are wealthier than mine so they can keep that up longer.

This is an inevitable outcome that anyone in the lemonade business would have expected.

> It's not always a happy ending in the lemonade business.

:-)

> The naivety on HN is staggering sometimes.

This is pretty arrogant given that you're trying to prognosticate something that historically isn't predictable, the financial outcome of a company.

What you neglect to acknowledge in your post is that the there is a lot of signaling from Travis about his ethics being questionable, existing investors want to get their money out so there's no assurances they're being ethical, it's not impossible that Uber will come out as playing Enron accounting games.

> This is pretty arrogant given that you're trying to prognosticate something that historically isn't predictable, the financial outcome of a company.

In my view it's less arrogant than OP is being naive. My point is not that Uber is going to have a certain financial outcome, it's that people are losing their minds because it's large numbers. Losing $3bn on $6bn of revenue is "unhealthy" but if they were losing $3m on $6m people wouldn't give a shit.

> there is a lot of signaling from Travis about his ethics being questionable

Yes.

> existing investors want to get their money out

The Kapors are seed investors. I don't think any of the institutions who have put in the bulk of the $15bn raised have suggested that they want their money back.

Can you articulate:

(a) your beliefs that Uber's fleet shifts to driverless at various points over the next 20 years.

(b) Their change in costs and revenues following this scenario (and in cases when this doesn't happen).

I can only justify Uber's recent valuations if I entirely discount regulatory risk, assume huge GDP growth in the developing economies + Uber establishing dominance there and that Uber goes completely driverless in the next 10 years, without any legal/licencing costs.

The alternative would be a 30% fare hike, which would cause customers to go banannas.

You're forgetting Uber's intent to be a major player in on-demand delivery, local shipping/haulage, and long distance shipping.

My point as ever remains this: people are looking at Uber's current model (where it loses 15% on each fare), its revenue, and its losses, and shitting themselves. They are correctly observing that to raise fares they would have to suffer a loss of customers. Those people are missing several points:

1. The bet on autonomous cars reducing Uber's fares further whilst simultaneously driving them to profitability

2. Uber's intent to spread beyond just passenger carrying

3. The fact that Uber could cut its expensive R&D and autonomous car team today and likely be profitable.

4. The fact that these numbers are simply the same numbers as most/many/all startups raising venture capital, simply orders of magnitude higher. They raised $15bn at a $100bn valuation? Great. There are companies who have raised $15m at $100m.

> I can only justify Uber's recent valuations if I entirely discount regulatory risk, assume huge GDP growth in the developing economies + Uber establishing dominance there and that Uber goes completely driverless in the next 10 years, without any legal/licencing costs.

A more interesting discussion (although irrelevant to my argument), and one we'd struggle to make without, y'know, actually having the data we need to value the business. Which is to say that we're sitting on the sidelines trying to guess the strategy and numbers. Parts of it are clear but I'd expect that a VC investor in Uber probably knows a bit more about what they want to do than us.

Ok great. Thanks for going into so much detail.

How likely do you think 1 is in the next 15 years (surely less than 100%)? To me, 50% seems generous.

How much can Uber's revenue grow with/without 1 (bare in mind they already represent approx 1/4 to 1/5 of global taxi bookings, although I admit this could be undercounted and grow)?

Based on this, what happens to Uber's net margin with/without (1). Bare in mind it's currently > -100% and the sector average has been low-mid single digits for years. I can't see it rising much above $3 -$4 billion with and can't get it anywhere near this without.

Its true that smaller companies raise money at high multiples of revenue, but that is when they represent a much smaller proportion of the potential market.

It's also true that they COULD successfully expand into other markets and this COULD one day become profitable. However, in my mind this roughly cancels out with the significant competitive and regulatory risk that they face in doubling their share of the taxi market,and they could end up repeating their trick of selling dollar bills for 85 cents in the markets too.

Happy to hear where you disagree!

> How likely do you think 1 is in the next 15 years (surely less than 100%)? To me, 50% seems generous.

Tesla has the hardware deployed already and announced that the software to enable Tesla Network (which is essentially Uber, without drivers) will be enabled by the end of this calendar year. You think there are 50% odds that one of the other companies ploughing billions of dollars into autonomous driving R&D is going to take another 15 years to execute on this? I can't think of many examples where that level of first mover advantage has existed outside of the development of viably deployable nuclear weapons.

> Based on this

I don't accept the premise, I'm afraid. But Uber could be profitable if it increased its fare price by 15%. So why is it difficult to believe that they could achieve profitability by cutting central costs?

> In the fifth year you think you're gonna spend $6 and make $10. And now you're profitable.

In theory yes, but tracking the the progress of UberChina http://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/18/uber-losing-1-billion-a-year-..., situation in Denmark or Spain, inability to win market share from established players in Russia, India or Malaysia introduce some real-world corrections to an otherwise ideal business plan.

You should read Brad Stone's The Upstarts. The outcome in China is actually pretty favorable for Uber. One-line summary: Travis (not Uber, but Travis) probably owns as much of Didi as the current founder/CEO of Didi. Didi is currently valued >$30B.
So good for Travis, bad for the investors in Uber? Nice move.
Uber owns way more.

From http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-uber-did...

> Uber will receive a 5.89% share of the combined entity with preferred equity interest, which is equal to a 17.7% economic interest in Didi Chuxing, the statement said.

> inability to win market share from established players in Russia, India or Malaysia

Any concrete data on this other than for news articles?

A good amount of companies operating in the space are private, guarding their financials as much as possible, so the field is not well covered by analysts, especially in emerging markets. I guess there's not enough incentive for an analyst, investment bank or brokerage house to pay for such research until someone in the field goes public. So unfortunately, we're restricted to random news articles.

Here's NYT on India https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/technology/uber-india.htm...

"On top of all this is competition. Uber faces an aggressive and well-funded Indian rival, Ola Cabs, which operates in 100 cities and offers a wider range of services than Uber does."

RT (okay, not the best source of non-fake news, but this is covering business and referring to a third-party report, so even with a grain of salt) https://www.rt.com/business/312513-yandex-taxi-uber-revenue/

"Russia's most popular search engine has not only beaten Google on its home turf, but has now left Uber in the dust in the Russian taxi market. The company has announced that its online-taxi services’ revenue has tripled in the second quarter of 2015. The Yandex.Taxi fleet has more than 15,000 vehicles in Moscow compared to 10,000 for its Israeli competitor Gett and America’s Uber with 3,000."

Analysis of Singapore market suggests that the playbook consisting of lowering the prices to undercut the taxi establishment works well in countries with expensive taxi services that limit medallions, not so well in countries with dirt-cheap and readily available taxi services http://sbr.com.sg/transport-logistics/news/sorry-uber-and-gr...

"the extremely high taxi penetration rate in Singapore means that it is less difficult for commuters to get a taxi in Singapore than in other cities, making it harder than elsewhere for Uber/Grab to get jobs for its drivers during off-peak hours."

In Singapore, you can also book taxi via Grab, we did so on our recent trip, meter/payment is still app based.
Or maybe their market plan already included those potential misses.
Or maybe it didn't?
Yup. I wouldn't be surprised if all these people being especially critical are vocally supportive of Lyft, despite the fact that leaked financials show that Lyft is losing money more than twice as fast as Uber.

If investor money stopped flowing tomorrow and all companies were forced to be cash flow positive to remain solvent, we'll quickly see which emperors have no clothes. These unit economics will continue for every player in this market as long as investors feel it is worth fighting for. Those with better margins will survive and will suffer the least amount of dilution in the process.

When the dust settles Uber is going to be the only company that ever ends up making any money in this market.