[idiot74]

> Unless one is producing their own vegetables, industrial production of them is no different than meat.

This post lacks common sense. Processing and feeding animals uses far more resources than processing crops (especially since crops are often processed in order to feed animals...).

"The efficiency with which various animals convert grain into protein varies widely. With cattle in feedlots, it takes roughly 7 kilograms of grain to produce a 1-kilogram gain in live weight. For pork, the figure is close to 4 kilograms of grain per kilogram of weight gain, for poultry it is just over 2, and for herbivorous species of farmed fish (such as carp, tilapia, and catfish), it is less than 2. As the market shifts production to the more grain-efficient products, it raises the productivity of both land and water."

http://www.earth-policy.org/books/pb2/pb2ch9_ss4

> It is nothing more than "I feel good" kind of thing.

Seems like you would deny reality in order to continue to 'feel good' about eating meat.

[kefka]

As a grain, it is poisonous to me, as I am diabetic.

However, the fish, chicken, pork, or beef are not. I can eat them as I choose.

[idiot74]

That's great and totally not the point I was making. My point was to counteract the claim that animal and crop production are equivalent in their impact on the environment, which is not accurate.

Whether it is worth the environmental impact is a different issue. Interestingly, googling 'vegetarian diabetic diet' suggests that a vegetarian diet may be healthier for diabetic people:

"Vegetarianism excludes high-calorie foods and animal products laden with saturated fats. It instead concentrates on foods that give necessary minerals and vitamins that help give diabetics a better chance of blood glucose control."

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/vegetarian-diet.html

[kefka]

I was also making the point that:

1. Vegetarianism is not an end-all-be-all

2. Some people fare very badly on many vegetables. Potatoes, grains, rice, and those sort of things are effectively slow poisons for Diabetics.

3. No, you will not shame or embarrass us into not eating meat. I'd personally consider vat grown meat. We're not there yet.

[idiot74]

1. Who said it was? But it's clear it benefits the environment and individuals.

2. Hmm, I keep reading things saying that vegetarian diets can be healthy for people with diabetes. Even on the official American Diabetes association website [1]. But if it truly isn't then it is a special case.

3. I agree that shame and embarrassment is not a good way to persuade people. However, there are lots of genuinely good things about a vegetarian diet that people might want to think about.

[1] http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/planning-meals... - "A vegetarian diet is a healthy option, even if you have diabetes. Research supports that following this type of diet can help prevent and manage diabetes. In fact, research on vegan diets has found that carbohydrate and calorie restrictions were not necessary and still promoted weight loss and lowered participants.

"Vegan diets are naturally higher in fiber, much lower in saturated fat, and cholesterol-free when compared to a traditional American diet. The high fiber in this diet may help you feel full for a longer time after eating and may help you eat less over all. When fiber intake is greater than 50 grams per day on a vegan diet, it may help lower blood glucose levels.

"This diet also tends to cost less. Meat, poultry, and fish are usually the most expensive foods we eat."

[kefka]

1. Who said it was? But it's clear it benefits the environment and individuals.

I'll give you good for the environment. I know animal protein costs more resource than plants do. Good for individuals? Nope. You're going to have to defend that claim.

2. Hmm, I keep reading things saying that vegetarian diets can be healthy for people with diabetes. Even on the official American Diabetes association website [1]. But if it truly isn't then it is a special case.

You undoubtedly triggered my disdain and hatred for the American Diabetes Association. It is my opinion, backed by my own personal data as fact, that they are peddling false medical science.

ADA claims that a diabetic can have 60g carbs per meal. Sure. And I'm sure they say testing 1x a day is fine as well. Instead, if you test regularly around the day, you'll find that certain foods cause significant blood-sugar issues. For me, harder squashes, potatoes, carrots all cause problems. I know the foods that cause spikes for me. I avoid them, or eat them very sparingly to level out any spikes.

Beer. Same. You're told by doctors that Guinness is fine. 7.5g carbs. And the docs never say to graph your blood sugar from before first sip to end. You can see your own results.

In the end, a diet high in fiber (types of carbohydrates that cannot be easily digested, and are good for many things), fats, and proteins are the healthiest for us diabetics. I only have my blood sugar reports to point to.

Yet, ADA recommends way too many carbs, and more drugs. Metformin is great... until it doesn't work 8-10 years later. Is it resistance, or bad eating that makes metformin not usable? Who knows. So I'm doing both. Taking Metformin when I know I cannot easily control my food, and eat very low carbs/day. I've already lost 80 lbs, and feel better than I have in years (well, not not, caught a cold at work, sigh).

And per note, I ALSO eat vegetables. I won't eat potatoes, certain squashes, and other high starch veggies. I also limit how much sugar containing veggies to my personal limits (which amounts to no higher than 140mg/dL glucose - the point of neurological damage).

[pjmlp]

I don't need to feel good about anything.

[idiot74]

Yet you accused people trying to reduce their impact on the environment as doing it just to 'feel good'; why do you assume they need to feel good about anything?.. I don't think it's constructive to disparage people who are attempting to reduce their impact on the environment.

[pjmlp]

No, my point even if badly worded is that I usually see this arguments as if eating meat and fish is bad, but everything else is perfectly fine without any kind of industrialization, chemicals, antibiotics or genetic modifications being used on vegetables.

Closing the eyes to the vegetables industrialization is what I meant by feeling good.