[stale2002]

Winning me over is easy.

Give me a better deal.

If the union job pays 50% more then I will take it. I'd have to be stupid not to.

But don't expect my loyalty to the union. As soon as it become a better deal to do something else, I am going to do that thing.

I don't care about solidarity, or "crossing the picket line" or whatever. I will take the best deal that is offered to me.

[eli_gottlieb]

That is really surprisingly self-sabotaging. People in labor movements don't spout slogans like, "An injury to one is an injury to all" because we're trying to moralize.

It's because when workers at one company have their salaries suppressed - by collusion in hiring, by wage theft, by death-march management - the market rate for their labor goes down overall. When any one company can abuse its workers, we all lose from that injury to the labor market we all share, as well as from the lost productivity from sub-optimal allocation of labor.

[stale2002]

Then these people who don't want me to sabotage their movement shouldnt force me to join.

They should leave me alone and not get in the way of the contract that is between me and my employer.

If they force me to join with BS closed shop contracts, they can expect me to explicitly and purposefully sabotage their movement in any way that I deem fit.

They do not represent me. I do not want their help. I do not want them to negotiate for me.

And hopefully these people who do not represent me will learn their lesson with regards to forcing people to join their movement, knowing that they can expect purposeful sabotage in retaliation.

[oddlyaromatic]

Crossing a picket line is kind of a moral choice where you decide how much value you place on A) the success of that particular strike and B) ever having anything to do with those picketers again. It is weird to talk about in terms of tech, but nevertheless, if there is a union that represents you, ignoring a strike would probably not be free, it would just be a different kind of cost. Maybe how many numbers you get at the end of the day is the only value you care about. I think, beyond a certain minimum salary, regard for your impact on other humans becomes relevant to many of us in the choices we make. Or things like work environment or hours, which unions safeguard. Would you work in a less safe environment to make your take home number 5% bigger? Or, indeed, tolerate greater risk to somebody else for more pay for you? "The best deal" can be a lot of things.

[chimeracoder]

> if there is a union that represents you, ignoring a strike would probably not be free, it would just be a different kind of cost

To elaborate on what that cost would be: If a union represents you, it can compel you to go on strike (even for a cause to which you object on ethical or moral grounds).

If you refuse, they can terminate your membership. For a closed shop, that's equivalent to firing you.

[oddlyaromatic]

Indeed- person I replied to does not care about that though, because they will get a better deal. Losing union membership doesn't matter in their imagined tech union.

While I am saying that collective bargaining is an important tool to increase workers' negotiating power, I'm not defending every specific implementation. I admire businesses who work with union employees because it implies that the power relationship is at least somewhat in balance, and workers are represented. I don't know if that also means I support "closed shops" where if somebody leaves the union they lose their job... But it sounds like maybe in supporting one I'm implicitly supporting the other.

Thanks for the comment.