That's a cheap and lazy argument, trying to deflect attention from the crimes of one party by discussing the crimes of another. They're both dangerous enough to kill you; both should be discussed as separate issues, not as a comparison.
GWB's first term average approval rating was 62% and at one point was as high as 90%. A lot of Americans have since found their opposition to these illegal foreign wars.
A commenter above says that it's a proven fact that Fox News is interested in nothing but propaganda, and the NYT is dedicated to truth, though they occasionally fail. When I look back on the Bush administration, and I think about how Code Pink was pushed front-and-center for 8 years by ABC/NBC/CBS, protesting the war(s), and how they absolutely disappeared once Obama took over, even though he materially continued the same policy in the middle east, I can't help but feel that every organization that is NOT Fox News was joined together in PRECISELY the same sort of propaganda that Fox is accused of. But, hey, I guess it's just me.
Hah, I'm the one arguing with those people too. People don't like to admit to themselves they consume the same thing they hate. But I'm rate limited because moderation of political discussion on this website is a joke unless you want to agree with everyone, so no more comments from me there.
NYT is still very war hawkish. Which wasn't so bad before when they were feigning neutrality. They were just a mainstream US paper pushing the 'company' line of their various connections in the gov. It was easy to look past.
But now that they've become more blatantly partisan (maybe as they infer here because it clearly sells more to be hyper partisan) it leaves me with an odd feeling that they are pushing back hard towards the Clinton-esque center left war-friendly surveillance-state Russian-boogiemen establishment politics that so many people (not just on the right) seem to be trying evolve beyond. At least the younger generations. And they say Trump is harking back to the old days...
After reading NYT daily for nearly a decade I'v moved to WSJ. It is much more expensive but I've been much happier reading it - as someone who doesn't care for either US party. I don't have to sift through vague connections to Russia or questionable accusations of secret white nationalism every time I read a political story about someone related to the current administration.
For example, I was just reading a profile of Donald Trump Jr. in NYT. Half way through the article they say he's been accused of making 'white nationalist' statements. Upon further reading it turns out to be because he made an off hand reference to 'gas chamber' in a random speech. So instead of making the obvious assumption he was referring to the form of capital punishment used in the US until the 1990s (and still used as a back up to lethal injection in some states), which is exactly what he claims to have been referring to, they decide to infer he was making some anti-semitic reference to the holocaust.
I am far from a Trump supporter but this type of weak partisan character assassination doesn't belong in a reputable paper like NYT.
So I'm not surprised to see a random swipe at Trump within the first few paragraphs of a non-political story... it's their shtick now.
Its partisan hackery any way you slice it. They made their cake by stacking the deck for Clinton. Search NYT on wikileaks podesta emails. NYT had time to be fair after they lost the election. Instead they doubled down. Who cares what their reasons are - like Trump said, their intent is to deceive and spread misinformation for nefarious and anti-proletariat motives. Fuck em
Really? I mean, it's not like the last Democrat president did anything to stop any wars. Or curb surveillance... or actually bring much transparency into government. All things he promised in his first campaign... I mean, constitutionally Obama was plainly against it, but I at least had some hope when he was elected he might actually do some of the things he'd promised. But no, more war, more bombs, more spying and surveillance.
It's not like any of this started with Trump, and isn't like any of it would really be stopped by a president for the other party, that served in the last administration over the department most directly covering spying and warfare.
Estimates appear to vary widely, with most in the hundreds of thousands range, but there's one estimate as high as a million deaths in the Iraq War (from the linked page):
"Opinion Research Business (ORB) poll conducted August 12–19, 2007, estimated 1,033,000 violent deaths due to the Iraq War. The range given was 946,000 to 1,120,000 deaths. A nationally representative sample of approximately 2,000 Iraqi adults answered whether any members of their household (living under their roof) were killed due to the Iraq War. 22% of the respondents had lost one or more household members. ORB reported that "48% died from a gunshot wound, 20% from the impact of a car bomb, 9% from aerial bombardment, 6% as a result of an accident and 6% from another blast/ordnance."
I agree that the war was based on lies. I agree it was a travesty. I honestly just wanted to know if I was correct in assuming that 1) they were indeed talking about Iraq, and 2) that they were accusing NYT of causing that war.
Ahh yes, just an honest mistake, and so long as only one million people are killed, not two, then we can promptly dismiss any concerns. Is that how it works?
I wonder if you think the NYT had a hand in pushing for the first Iraq war? How about in Yugoslavia? Panama? Libya? Syria? Or were all of those moral and noble humanitarian wars where the death and destruction was worth it?
Although the Iraq war is the best and most blatant example of the NYT's warmongering, it is far from the only one. All of these wars combined easily resulted in millions of deaths.
Nobody has claimed one million were killed. Stop trying to spread wrong information, it is the same thing as lying.
>I wonder if you think the NYT had a hand in pushing for the first Iraq war? How about in Yugoslavia? Panama? Libya? Syria? Or were all of those moral and noble humanitarian wars where the death and destruction was worth it?
Holy fucking non sequitur, batman. What does a media agenda have to do with a moral position on war? How is "NYT had a hand in pushing for" related to the question of whether your examples were "moral and noble humanitarian wars?" You can't just say a thing that's absurd, and then immediately assume they're true, so that you can jump to making a moral attack. Here's a great resource for you: http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Logic%20and%20Analy...
>best and most blatant example of NYT's warmongering
Somehow we started at outright lies about the number of deaths in the Iraq war, and concluded that the NYT is a warmongering institution with the power to mobilize the most powerful military on the planet at it's whim, and thus is responsible for every death caused by the US military throughout history.
Hey let's take it up a notch, did you know humans never landed on the moon and that Mark Zuckerberg's evil twin, Matt Zuckerberg, is running a robotic pizza factory that snoops through people's emails? Benghazi.
Yes. Sadly, he's getting a lot of traction with it too.
Mainstream media reports from a big business point of view and it almost never reports on itself or its parents critically.
People get this. Trust is low and Trump is exploiting that reality to great effect.
Today, we have people growing lost, confused, seeking more and maybe better information. What they are finding from indie efforts ranges all over the map.
It's reasonable to say that isn't a good thing either. Though I will also say it is at least a mild check on an ugly press machine in play today.
I am very rapidly becoming a fan of people funded news and Media.
In the USA there is almost no reporting and commentary from the economic left point of view, for example. I lean strong left, but I also don't see that as a blanket answer.
I do see it as the basis for a more complete discussion, and we really need that right now. I know I need to understand others better and they me so the conversation can get somewhere good.
This isn't happening.
Not all of our problems are going to be resolved with boardroom and or bumper sticker politics.
For perspective, our conservative peers could say the same thing about social issue reporting, and they would be right.
The product of this is a very dangerous polarization. Ideologies are being championed as means to ends, when the better role for them is as a basis for policy ideas we can use, combine and apply toward common goals. There are a few big needs, like health care, where we have solid majority support for doing good things, necessary things, yet no real ability to accomplish them.
Our press does not address this at all too. It's all process and horse race type drama, not a meaningful look at both the state of things and clear desire to make progress on them.
A more inclusive discussion, sans so damn many triggers and set pieces would bring those goals to front and center. All political sides need this.
We need it as ordinary people too. Badly.
Some 20 percent of us have few worries about money. Another slice, maybe a third tops, must be super careful, but are OK. The rest are in big and growing trouble! Super expensive, long term trouble. Decline of a great nation type trouble.
As a nation of people, that growing unrest is not good. We will pay really hard for allowing so much to get stalled, bogged down, ignored. Even those of us who are economically secure will share in that cost. It won't hurt in dollar terms like it will most Americans. It will hurt in terms of our future, environment, social laws, many norms.
These kinds of things take lifetimes to come back from, if we even can
It began somewhere late 70s maybe 80s too. A look at government and politics prior to that time saw the process working. Governance happened and it was net progress. Our history is littered with ugly politics. The better times seem to be associated with a more functional press.
Those better periods were not the best possible, but were livable.
Today?
Cluster fuck. And the press has a lot to do with that as does the Internet and social media presenting different views to everyone based on some ideas of what we think people want to see. It's hard to get a sense of where people are really at outside our circles and rough class and demographic.
This should be front and center journalism. Yet, it isn't.
Remember earlier, simpler Internet? For a while we all saw most of the same things. People exploiting that and the need or value in curated content brought us a better information view in some ways, but a worse one in others.
This idea of a weekly paper, if done in a reasonable, equitable way may just hold the potential for establishing that "we are all people and just want better for us and ours" conversation. It could unify people and foster cross class, cross gender, etc... type conversations.
It could also do a lot to help understand one another better and punch through so damn much vilification going on too. When we have an opportunity to talk to one another, sans all the bullshit, we invariably find the others have good intent. Nobody wants so many others to hurt and struggle out of hand.
So many of us do not have those conversations. Lack of venue, opportunity, fear, judgement all play a role here.
I'll be watching efforts like this. We need to keep trying. The growing mess us quickly approaching the unrecoverable and regrettable.
Almost none of us really want that, but it's gonna happen, unless we can somehow have a common conversation that can get us back to the idea of just governance.
Nobody should get all they want, but all of us should be getting the things we really need. There is more than enough for it to happen too.
How would you recommend Trump respond to the media when they publish things like this "dossier" back in January before the inauguration that alleged things like Trump traveling to Russia to rent an old hotel room Obama stayed in so he could hire Russian prostitutes to perform a "golden showers" show in front of him -- a "dossier" (makes it sound more legitimate right) which has since been debunked as a 4chan prank on the intelligence community:
Now, NYT themselves did not run this story. But the vast majority of "main stream media" runs stories with a narrative - or as Trump himself put it - a "tone". They insist that Trump must be wrapped in controversy, and every article I come across from NYT, CNN, MSNBC, WaPo all insist on including a negative tone; or at the very least, emphasizing facts that make Trump seem negligent, stupid, arrogant or malevolent. In my opinion, it's them who have forfeited ethics. Tell me, how exactly is Trump doing something "new and very dangerous"? How should he respond to constant negativity? Even he himself is not asking for positive propaganda - he just wants neutral, honest media reporting. He has told CNN in a press conference that he'd be their greatest fan if they would report honestly.
First of all, the dossier was put together by former MI6 agent Christopher Steele and wasn't just some 4chan prank.
How do you suggest the NYT, CNN, WaPo react to actions that seem to come from a place of incompetence or malevolence? When Trump rolls out an unconstitutional EO that seemed barely vetted by the Attorney General's office, how should the NYT paint that in such a way that Trump is depicted as competent?
When Trump and Spicer repeat falsehoods that anyone with a pair of eyes can refute (inauguration crowd size) or that has zero evidence behind it whatsoever (3-5 million illegal votes, Obama wiretapping Trump), how should the WaPo react to these lies?
When the president's campaign is under investigation by the FBI for potential collusion with a foreign government, and Rep. Schiff says there is 'more than circumstantial evidence', how should CNN report this?
It's laughable and a little bit sad that people think that Trump is more honest than the MSM.
Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate. Whenever the Attorney General finds that a commercial airline has failed to comply with regulations of the Attorney General relating to requirements of airlines for the detection of fraudulent documents used by passengers traveling to the United States (including the training of personnel in such detection), the Attorney General may suspend the entry of some or all aliens transported to the United States by such airline.
Sure, the president has the authority to impose restrictions on immigration, but not by imposing a religious test, which would violate the establishment clause.
1. The dossier wasn't some prank, and was proceeded by someone who, all things being equal, could be considered a somewhat "reliable" source. It's production and existence warranted investigation.
2. The dossier existed. It was floating around for months. Reputable organizations refused to publish the actual document, because it could not be verified sufficiently to warrant full coverage. CNN approached the potential story by talking around the document. NY Times just didn't publish it.
3. The Press is supposed to be relentlessly aggressive towards the administration, and towards power in general. Every administration has to deal with this, from one section of the media or another. Any time the press has abdicated that balance, bad things happen (see Iraq war).
4. An anonymous comment on 4chan doesn't "debunk" anything.
I'm not sure how it's relevant then, unless you're suggesting there's a conspiracy between CNN and NYT to destabilize Trump. Oh, you are. Carry on then.
>Every article... include a negative tone.
He is a bad president. Of course the media is negative about him.
>a dossier... which has since been debunked as a 4chan prank
I'm not saying he isn't a bad choice for President... He's only been President for a couple of months. In the course of 4 years, that's a bit premature of a statement.
What seems to be happening with education, and the pitiful healthcare bill... not fond of a lot of what's happening. Not to mention, there is zero need to expand military spending. I'm all for cutting spending, but expanding one of the biggest areas of the budget when we already outspend the rest of the world combined is asinine.
You can tank your entire presidency on a single decision. Bush JR did, relatively early into his career as well.
When the sum total of your bad decisions are as great as Bush JR or Trump, there's little you can do to negate that in the next 3 years.
Furthermore, my statement is that he is a bad president, which he is. Personal attacks on Twitter, regular vacations at taxpayer expense, deregulating climate change, pushing to remove healthcare from Americans, bad appointments. These actions are happening now and have not been rectified. Present tense, he is a bad president.
If he undoes all these things and does a couple good things, I will say "he was a bad president, then he became a good president." Currently, though, bad president.
You can criticize the editorialization of news sources without falling to outright blanketing them as "fake news" sources.
Trump has repeatedly claimed facts as true without evidence or just based on a claim by a singular news source sans evidence. It is worrying that Trump has repeatedly done this and then sought to discredit critical news sources by labeling them "fake". I'd wish the president to be above hypocrisy in the realm of "fake news". You shouldn't spew falsehoods and then criticize others for doing the same. Both sides are guilty of this, but I believe the president has a higher burden of responsibility than a newspaper or TV program.
I also believe that Trump has been guilty of generating BS moreso than the "legitimate liberal-leaning" news, but that's just me editorializing, so please leave it out of my argument :)
That's quite a high bar.