[Mithaldu]

I live in Hannover, Germany. I am physically impacted by both stories:

For obvious reasons by the refugee one;

And also by Trump's bullshitting with healthcare due to having multiple friends in the USA whose lives are directly and acutely endangered by him and his murderous troupe, which in turn impacts my ability to meet them again.

[sremani]

Its not the impact itself, but with activism people can influence local outcomes much better than national and much much better than international outcomes. Almost any one can go to City council meeting and let their presence know, and with enough patience can get audience of the council both in public and private forum. To do that at National and International level the costs involved are high and there is no denying you have fund your trips to DC/NY/London/Geneva/The Hauge etc.

That is the point, big fish in small pond vs small fish in an ocean metaphor.

[Mithaldu]

Sure, i can do little to impact back, however the post i was replying to was claiming it would be impossible for me to be impacted by both. Yet i undeniably am. Also, being informed means i can at least provide my friends with appropiate emotional support.

[briandear]

Murderous?

[Mithaldu]

Pence particularly caused a HIV outbreak: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-pence-indiana-hiv_u...

And for the rest: Anyone who wants to remove Obamacare without having a more inclusive plan ready.

[BeetleB]

>Pence particularly caused a HIV outbreak:

I read the article, and I'm sorry, I do not think you know the meaning of the word "cause". He did not cause any outbreak.

Not providing help is not going to cause anyone to suffer. What causes people to suffer are other factors (for HIV, it's usually unprotected sex, careless intermingling of blood, etc). Refusing assistance doesn't cause people to die. The disease kills them.

Now if you make a case that Pence was directly involved in infecting them, then yes, he caused it.

Assistance is exactly what it is: It is help. My refusing to help someone does not mean I caused his misery. Nor is it punishment, another word often used in these situations.

While I disagree with Pence's actions, I can also point out false allegations made against him.

[Mithaldu]

I said he caused an outbreak. Yes, he did not personally infect anybody, however he removed the testing, and he acted directly in delaying aid that would've kept it under control, thus allowing it to become an outbreak.

Being responsible for one's inaction is a thing, especially so when one is in a position whose job description it is to be responsible for such things.

If you're a chicken farmer and you fail to feed your chickens, then you did cause your chickens to starve.

E: Thanks for the reply though. It was fascinatingly insightful for me.

[BeetleB]

>I said he caused an outbreak.

And I still disagree. He refused to prevent one.

>Being responsible for one's inaction is a thing,

Yes, he is responsible for his inactions. Nevertheless, he did not cause an outbreak.

>If you're a chicken farmer and you fail to feed your chickens, then you did cause your chickens to starve.

I'm afraid not. I can be held responsible for not feeding them, but I did not starve them (unless I prevented them from getting food by confining them).

Sorry, but my goal is not to be obtuse or difficult. When this usage of the world causes problems with people sympathetic to your view, you can understand its ineffectiveness in convincing anyone of your perspective.

If I were organizing a campaign to convince Indiana voters not to reelect him (assuming he were not the VP), I would exclude people with your rhetoric. It will cause people to side with him more.

[epmaybe]

In this situation, I'm not sure what the functional difference is between causing an outbreak and refusing to prevent one.

Let me walk through this (for my own benefit). People get HIV/Hep C from IV drug abuse. Needle exchanges are a way to get infected needles off the street. There was a statewide ban on needle exchange programs. Pence agreed with this sentiment and voted for public health funding cuts (2011). 2013, Pence is governor, and planned parenthood in Scott County shuts down. January 2015, outbreak happened, and cause was identified. April 2015, Pence allowed a temporary needle exchange in Scott County.

So this makes me think that, yes, Pence supported things that led to the outbreak. Inaction is still an action, is it not? But at the same time, he changed his mind (after 3 months, but better late than never) once he realized it was no longer gubernatorially (is that a word?) feasible to stick to his position.

[Mithaldu]

The reality of the matter is that as governor he has a moral obligation to keep all of his citizens as safe as possible. He, at one point, chose to reduce the safety of his citizens, and at another chose not to protect his citizens. These choices of his directly led to the outbreak.

Whether you are unhappy about this reality being stated is no concern of mine, since, as stated elsewhere, nothing i can say will actually have an effect on the situation.

I'm just a dude who's watching a country prepare to send multiple of his friends to the chopping block just because they had the misfortune of being born in a place where "socialist" is an insult.

[codesuela]

humans have more agency than chickens