[bbernard]

What do you think creates more pollution between:

  1. All airlines in the world.
  2. All cars in the world.
  3. All factories in the world.
  4. All rockets in the world.

Right now, I think that 1, 2 and 3 combined have much deeper consequences than 4.

[vkou]

What economic value do all airlines, cars, factories in the world produce? They are the reason we don't live in mud huts, poking at eachother with sharp sticks.

Now, what economic value do all rockets in the world produce? Satellite TV and GPS? Satellite weather reports that we complain about, and climate studies that we ignore?

And those are the low-hanging fruits. The ROI of a GPS network, a communication network, and orbital climate satellites is miles better then that of asteroid mining.

[bbernard]

I guess that we see things differently.

On one hand, you see the economic value of airlines, cars and factories, so for you it justifies the environmental consequences that they have. Fair enough.

On the other hand, you don't see the economic value of asteroid mining and of getting things into space, so you talk about the consequences that it might have on the environment.

Did you know that asteroids represent an endless supply of rare metals (gold, platinum, etc.)? Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining#Purpose if you don't believe me. This might represent the biggest economic opportunity of all times. And if we want to become a "multi-planetary species" as Elon Musk suggests, this will probably be essential.

Now, I personally tend to be more on the environment's side. So as long as we use those metals to build things on other planets and in space, I don't see any problem. We'll need to be responsible with this.

[FullMtlAlcoholc]

> Now, what economic value do all rockets in the world produce?

The development of rocket technology and the resulting space program has had the greatest effect on our modern world save pretty much produced our connected, modern world and developments from our space program probably form the bedrock of many of our most advanced industries. Have you ever been in an airplane that doesn't have GPS? Let' s just say I'd be drving, taking the train a lot more places than go back to planes using old landing technology

It is simply disingenuous of you to completely dismiss and reduce the importance of GPS and Satellitle communications. Major communications networks, banking systems, financial markets and power grids depend heavily on GPS for precise time synchronization. Nearly all new military assets — from vehicles to munitions — come equipped with GPS. We're conducting whole wars by drone.

If you actually do care about the economic and security importance of the satellite (It's more than just DishTV) and GPS network, here's an actual study:

http://marshall.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Day-without-S...

Or you could just google "what would happen to us if satellites disappeared" Here are some results:

“Apart from the fact that everyone has forgotten to navigate without GPS in their cars, many airplanes use GPS as well,” says McDowell.

Though backup systems exist, airlines use GPS to chart the most fuel-efficient and expeditious routes. Without GPS and telecomm-sats, aircraft controllers would have tremendous difficulty communicating with and routing airplanes. Airlines would have to fall back to legacy systems and procedures. Given the sheer volume of airline traffic today, accidents would be all but guaranteed.

Other affected navigation systems would include those aboard cargo vessels, supply-chain management systems, and transportation hubs driven by GPS.

But GPS does more than just provide positioning — it also provides for timing. Ground-based atomic clocks can perform the same function, but GPS is increasingly being used to distribute the universal time standard via satellites. Within hours of a terminated service, any distributing networks requiring tight synchronization would start to suffer from “clock drift,” leading to serious performance issues and outright service outages. Such disruptions could affect everything from the power grid through to the financial sector.

In the report, “A Day Without Space: Economic and National Security Ramifications,” Ed Morris, the Executive Director of the Office of Space Commerce at the Department of Commerce, writes:

If you think it is hard to get work done when your internet connection goes out at the office, imagine losing that plus your cell phone, TV, radio, ATM access, credit cards, and possibly even your electricity. [...]

Wireless services, especially those built to CDMA standard, would fail to hand off calls from one cell to the next, leading to dropped connections. Computer networks would experience slowdowns as data is pushed through finite pipelines at reduced bit rates. The same would be true for major networks for communication and entertainment, since they are all IP-based today and require ultra-precise timing to ensure digital traffic reaches its destination. The lack of effective synch would hit especially hard in banking, where the timing of transactions needs to be recorded. Credit card payments and bank accounts would likely freeze, as billions of dollars could be sucked away from businesses. A financial crash is not out of the question.

The Loss of Military Capability

The sudden loss of satellite capability would have a profound effect on the military.

Useless without GPS: The U.S. Navy’s Harpoon missile (U.S. Navy)

The Marshall Institute puts it this way: “Space is a critical enabler to all U.S. warfare domains,” including intelligence, navigation, communications, weather prediction, and warfare. McDowell describes satellite capability as as the “backbone” of the U.S. military.

And as 21st century warfare expert Peter W. Singer from New America Foundation tells io9, “He who controls the heavens will control what happens in the battles of Earth.” Singer summarized the military consequences of losing satellites in an email to us:

Today there are some 1,100 active satellites which act as the nervous system of not just our economy, but also our military. Everything from communications to GPS to intelligence all depend on it. Potential foes have noticed, which is why Russia and China have recently begun testing a new generation of anti-satellite weapons, which in turn has sparked the U.S. military to recently budget $5 billion for various space warfare systems.

What would happen if we lost access to space? Well, the battles would, as one U.S. military officer put it, take us back to the “pre digital age.” Our drones, our missiles, even our ground units wouldn’t be able to operate the way we plan. It would force a rewrite of all our assumptions of 21st century high tech war. We might have a new generation of stealthy battleships...but the loss of space would mean naval battles would in many ways be like the game of Battleship, where the two sides would struggle to even find each other. Moreover, and as McDowell explains to io9, the loss of satellite capability would have a profound effect on arms control capabilities. Space systems can monitor compliance; without them, we’d be running blind.

“The overarching consideration is that you wouldn’t really know what’s going on,” says McDowell. “Satellites provide for both global and local views of what’s happening. We would be less connected, less informed — and with considerably degraded situational awareness.”

Compromised Weather Prediction and Climate Science

One great thing satellites have done for us is improve our ability to forecast weather. Predicting a slight chance of cloudiness is all well and good, but some areas, like India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, are dependent on such systems to predict potentially hazardous monsoons. And in the U.S., the NOAA has estimated that, during a typical hurricane season, weather satellites save as much as $3 billion in lives and property damage.

Hurricane Ivan (NOAA)

There’s also the effect on science to consider. Much of what we know about climate change comes from satellites.

As McDowell explains, the first couple of weeks without satellites wouldn’t make much of a difference. But over a ten-year span, the lack of satellites would preclude our ability to understand and monitor such things as the ozone layer, carbon dioxide levels, and the distribution of polar ice. Ground-based and balloon-driven systems would help, but much of the data we’re currently tracking would suddenly become much spottier.

Without satellites, you can say goodbye to maps like this (NOAA)

“We’re quite dependent on satellites for a global view of what’s happening on our planet — and at a time when we really, really need to know what’s happening,” says McDowell.

It’s also worth pointing out that, without satellites, we also wouldn’t be able to monitor space weather, such as incoming space storms.

It's also disingenuous to discount the role the space program plays in inspiring people to become scientists and engineers, like myself and I'm sure a hefty number of people on this board.