[Exofunctor]

I am, by most metrics, an ardent globalist; I advocate absolute free trade and absolute free movement. However, it's not very hard to recognize that many people's definition of globalism effectively includes such things as forced immigration, cultural erasure, and overburdening of welfare states, which are conducive to increased conflict rather than increased cooperation.

[dang]

Generic ideological tangents are not interesting in HN's sense. They don't gratify intellectual curiosity. They merely retread the well-trodden, and a few people get hot and bothered while the rest of us yawn. This site is not for the hot and bothered to hijack; therefore we don't want generic ideological discussions on HN.

I was going to ask you to stop, but since you went into full-out ideological flamewar later, I'm banning your account instead. Please don't create accounts to do this with.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13915801 and marked it off-topic.

[hwillis]

>forced immigration, cultural erasure, and overburdening of welfare states, which are conducive to increased conflict rather than increased cooperation.

We have had all of those things for over a century in the US. You don't even have to be a citizen to be able to immigrate to any state in the union from any other state. "Cultural erasure" is even more nonsensical than "cultural appropriation". Overburdening of welfare states has been fine for the entire history of the US. These things made the US the most powerful nation in the world.

The EU is less than half the size of the US. The problems you are describing are ridiculous and irrelevant.

edit: not to mention, the EU takes in even fewer legal immigrants than the US does, per capita. "Cultural erasure" doesn't mean tearing down maypoles and shit, it just means a kebab place opens up down the street. Who could possibly give a shit about that? NOBODY. except racists, obviously.

[ericd]

The US has never had a welfare state remotely comparable to that of the western European majors. It's one of the reasons we're able to take in immigrants without caring historically, and the more recent increases in our welfare system, which I think are directionally a good thing, have the unfortunate side effect of making it necessary to be more careful about who you let in and how long before they can become a full citizen, with all the entitlements that come with it. The European countries also have much more uniform cultures than the US has ever had, and a vastly longer history and tradition. It's nowhere near as simple as "Who doesn't want more kebabs? Clearly, racists." Europe is not currently well set up structurally or culturally to take in large numbers of people of different cultures.

[hwillis]

You're conflating two completely different things with welfare. In the US they are the same- poor states get immense amounts of Federal assistance to help poor citizens. In Europe individual states may have welfare systems, but EU "welfare" is economic assistance to members eg Italy. It has nothing to do with refugees and immigrants and is just a base factor in the difficulty of holding together the difficulty of a state, and in that way the member states of the EU are FAR closer together in economic power than states in the US are. ie the EU would be much, much easier to run, but as it turns out it takes more than 25 years for a country to find its feet.

It is as simple as "who doesn't want kebabs", because the number of immigrants is stupid low. One in 300 does not cultural destruction make, unless your culture is "no brownies". These cultures have coexisted and coimmigrated for the better part of a thousand years. The ottomans aren't new. Europeans are used to muslims. Having a stronger and longer culture makes you MORE resilient to outside change, not less.

Edit: the us has ten times the number of immigrants in Mexicans alone. The effect they have had is well described as adding a few ethnic restaurants. Maybe a few places have chosen to put up bilingual signs. If you consider that "cultural Erasure", the BASE STATE of Europe is to have a half dozen languages being spoken in one place. Muslims are simply "the wrong kind", which is ridiculous as they are just the next country over and always have been. If anything has contributed to "cultural Erasure" it has been the US, which has helped impose a monoculture on every nation in Europe.

[dracht]

You're arguing from the arrogant point of view that the USA is the pinnacle of civilization and other nations should strive to emulate it.

European countries, and most other nations in the world, have/had native populations that enjoy cohesion through a common culture, history and ethnicity. Being American is a loose concept that a newcomer can easily adopt. Being Japanese or German carries with it more than just having the appropriate passport, and for that reason the integration of immigrants in Europe has failed completely. Turks in Germany identify as Turks despite being born on German soil. Who is to blame - the Turks, for sticking to their tribe, the Germans for sticking to theirs, or the people who forced this idea of multiculturalism on them both?

A quarter of the population in the Netherlands is of non-Dutch origin and that number will grow significantly in the foreseeable future. That change happened in a mere 30 years or so. To say the Dutch people (and Belgians, Swedes, etc) should not worry about being displaced and made a minority in their own country is to tell them to stick their heads in the sand.

Reducing peoples' thoughts and emotions to "they don't want immigration because they're racist proletarians" is inflammatory, intended to silence opposition to failed social experiments. Keeping immigration at a level that doesn't cause unnecessary friction does not mean you want to shove people into ovens. This whole debate is a battle between ideology and pragmatism.

[hwillis]

I'm arguing that it is incredibly hypocritical to criticise the EU without calling for the immediate dissolution of the US, just based on the arguments people use. The EU is a similar system that doesn't go nearly as far and has many things that make it more likely to be successful.

>A quarter of the population in the Netherlands is of non-Dutch origin and that number will grow significantly in the foreseeable future. That change happened in a mere 30 years or so. To say the Dutch people (and Belgians, Swedes, etc) should not worry about being displaced and made a minority in their own country is to tell them to stick their heads in the sand.

Has the EU forced this on them, or did they and their leaders want this? In Germany and Sweden it was their choice. The problem of immigration in the EU as a whole is a nonissue- that's what I'm saying. The problem of immigration in specific places is a direct result of choices made in those places.

[24gttghh]

>The EU is less than half the size of the US. The problems you are describing are ridiculous and irrelevant.

By what metric?

[hwillis]

By land, obviously. Meaning that immigration is much easier to control if they want to, culture is much more concentrated and therefor much harder to "erase", and that there aren't giant empty rural unprofitable flyover states like there are in the US. Inequality in the US is much greater and has always been much greater than in the EU. The only difference is that in the US nobody gives a shit.

[Exofunctor]

Are you familiar with https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict... ?

This is a good example of how relatively small populations can have huge cultural effects.

Another example is how migrants from Islamic countries can carry out terrorist attacks and completely change European and American culture for the worse. The loss of American travel culture post 9/11 is tragic, and I can't think of a better word to describe it than "erasure".

Paris is now building a wall around the Eiffel Tower, thanks entirely to recent massacres committed by strongly religious immigrants for religious reasons.

Heavily Muslim neighborhoods in the U.K. have volunteer "sharia police" that harass women for dressing "immodestly".

Swedish officials removed traditional Christmas displays from Muslim areas, and then blamed the structural integrity of lamp posts (yes, really) when asked why.

Cultural erasure doesn't take a huge influx of people; it just takes a small population with aggressively viral cultural memes and a host culture with insufficient memetic defenses.

But, of course, I must be a racist for preferring European culture over throwing gays off buildings, women being unable to drive or show their faces, etc. etc.

[hwillis]

>But, of course, I must be a racist for preferring European culture over throwing gays off buildings, women being unable to drive or show their faces, etc. etc.

Racist is exactly what that is. That's not who Syrian refugees are, or who muslims are. This is who they are: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/female-soldier-dubbe...

Muslims are people, not culture-destroying machines. Bowing to them and throwing away a much larger group of people is wrong WHOEVER they are. It's wrong to destroy tradition, its wrong to allow vigilantes, and its wrong to turn away refugees. You're defining a huge group of people by the worst of them. If you're calling for a halt or reduction to immigration, you're denying the rest of them even a chance. That is certainly racist.

But... shops carrying halal/kosher food? Living with different cultures and religions? There's nothing wrong with that. The author is unconvincing.

>Another example is how migrants from Islamic countries can carry out terrorist attacks and completely change European and American culture for the worse. The loss of American travel culture post 9/11 is tragic, and I can't think of a better word to describe it than "erasure".

That is an alarming distortion of facts. Instability in the middle east is not the same as muslim immigration into the US. The attacks were carried out by men on visas, not immigrants. Immigration is never easier than getting a visa, and halting immigration doesn't make it harder to attack a country.

>Cultural erasure doesn't take a huge influx of people; it just takes a small population with aggressively viral cultural memes and a host culture with insufficient memetic defenses.

Tripe. The existence of other cultures does not destroy culture. This assertion is insane. When a store chooses to carry kosher meat, they make that choice. When a mexican store opens, they buy the land and their customers choose to shop there.

>Swedish officials removed traditional Christmas displays from Muslim areas, and then blamed the structural integrity of lamp posts (yes, really) when asked why.

Do you not see how the middle ground is disireable...? Muslims should not force Swedes to wear hijabs, but muslims in sweden should at least be free enough to choose to wear one. Likewise they cannot force the government to act secularly, but maybe muslim-majority areas also shouldn't be forcibly decorated for christmas. It's a small kindness, and not an extreme one. Do you get mad if your jewish neighbors don't put up stockings?

>Heavily Muslim neighborhoods in the U.K. have volunteer "sharia police" that harass women for dressing "immodestly".

Had. From 2013-2014. Those men were arrested and imprisoned. The Muslim community condemned them as "utterly unacceptable". "Christian patrol"s sprang up in response and are just as morally disgusting. You're taking an incident that everybody hated and blaming it on some mysterious them. This is the exact propaganda technique used by the KKK and pretty much every racist hate group. In short- you're being racist as fuck.

[unityByFreedom]

I get that. There's some give and take, and people view things differently. Previously, we've agreed that having a stable economy is something that's in everyone's best interest. I'm not sure whether or not people still find agreement about that.

People on all sides are asking what their country can do for them, not what they can do for their country.

During the next economic crisis, will we allow another TARP, or will we vote to do nothing and sink into a depression for a few years until we decide to dig ourselves out, possibly allowing an aggressive international power to gain a military edge?

[oh_sigh]

If 100M people from Africa/ME showed up in Europe, you think this would be a good thing for the world?

[unityByFreedom]

Over a long period of time? Why not. America is nearly 100% immigrants.

[bordercases]

Most of them were White Christians for the longest time. Are people of that even temperament that you can't see differences between them?

[unityByFreedom]

Certainly I see differences in people's culture. I don't damn them for it.

[bordercases]

One can move for economic opportunities or cultural opportunities. The two can co-occur but they are different needs. If we're talking about integration of Muslims, the ones who aren't soft on their own beliefs, i.e. not raised in the cosmopolitan West, are likely moving simply for economic opportunity or to avoid danger, not necessarily because they like the West.

Given that in most countries that are purely Muslim have reason to resent the West and see their struggle as being in part ideological, as Western materialist culture is antithetical to Islamic theocracy, should we not be a little bit wary?

I don't think culture is the only variable, but even if it was, there is still cause for concern.

[chinathrow]

Of course it is. We have plenty of space here in Europe.

Also, why should borders really matter? Protectionism?

[Exofunctor]

No, which is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. "Free movement", to me, means that you are free to travel wherever you'd like on your own dime. It doesn't mean that you get to show up somewhere and demand citizenship, housing, medical care, or other free stuff. But obviously some people conflate these things.