[ff10]

I'm 34 and I do work as a developer for a startup. But then again, I'm working in Germany where I saw 45+ lead developers in startups, and age is something that is mostly considered to be an asset, not a burden - as long as you're willing to learn every day. The good thing here is that you recognize hype better than when you're young.

[cstross]

I( worked as a developer for a startup aged 34 ... in the UK. I was the youngest person in the startup, too. (It went public via reverse-takeover and ended up being absorbed by Mastercard a decade later: as we were in payment services, you could consider this a win.)

There is an elephant in the room that the Americans on HN are reluctant to admit, which is that the US healthcare system sucks. Startups can't easily afford the corporate health insurance premiums they need in order to attract older staff, so they perforce rely on the young and healthy — who are cheaper, don't have families, and don't have expensive chronic conditions.

The US healthcare system thus applies invisible constraints to hiring practices that encourage unspoken discrimination against experienced adults.

(Whereas in the UK we had a working NHS to provide cover for us and our families, and in Germany the insurance system is at least sane. Sure, our VC and finance sector is (or was, in my day) less hospitable to startups, but: swings and roundabouts.)

[ThomaszKrueger]

American here, can confirm and will admit. Not only that but there is a lot of discouragement for developers to take time off, like a sabbatical, to learn and try new things, or to do consulting or contract work. Being able to count on healthcare equates to being employed. It doesn't suck as badly because there is an overall shortage of talent.

Things are going to be even worse IMO with the new adminstration.

[Insanity]

I'm from a similar country (Belgium) but have seen both sides of it, both where age is an advantage as well as a negative factor.

At a startup I worked at, we were considering hiring a developer who was older than us (+20 years older), but in the end did not do it as we felt he might have trouble being managed by people significantly older than him. This was not my decision and I would have been in favor of hiring him - for the experience he could bring to the company.

Anyway, I now work in a team where most people (apart from 2) are older than me, and I consider that a priviledge. I get to learn from them in a great way, and I feel that I can teach them things as well. It goes both ways really.

And I do feel that in general here age is not such an important factor. Though that is just from looking at my colleagues, I am not in a comparable situation yet.

Just out of curiousity btw, does 'ff10' hold any relation to 'fast fingers'?

[spoiler]

> we were considering hiring a developer who was older than us (+20 years older), but in the end did not do it as we felt he might have trouble being managed by people significantly older than him.

I am curious: Did something give you the impression he'd be bothered by a younger management, or was it just a general concern?

I am only 23, but I imagine I wouldn't have issues being managed by someone my age if I were 33. However, I know that I'd be pretty shit at management right now, and would definitely not want to manage someone older than me. Personally, I'd prefer to be managed by someone older than myself due to them having more experience. Then again, wisdom doesn't come solely from age; one can have more experience and wisdom at 15 than someone at 50.

My conclusion is that there is no conclusion, I guess.

[mgkimsal]

> I am only 23, but I imagine I wouldn't have issues being managed by someone my age if I were 33. However, I know that I'd be pretty shit at management right now...

When you get to 33, look at the 23 year olds around you, and imagine taking direction from them.

Imagine them making blatantly/obviously poor decisions, and understanding that because of these decisions you may very well be out of a job in 6 months.

Imagine there are half a dozen or more folks in your org that have been in similar situations, and they all have experience in "domain X", and are available to be probed for info/insight on domain X to help avoid poor decisions. Now imagine them all being completely overlooked because they're "old" (40) or aren't in the "circle" of the 23 year old manager/ceo.

There of course are exceptions to these scenarios, but they tend to be just that - exceptions. Most 23 year olds simply do not have the depth of experience needed to understand how and when to best use the folks around them. Think about this when you're 30, 33 or 40, and revisit the idea of being "managed" by a 23 year old.

This doesn't mean no one younger can ever manage anyone older - not by a longshot. But it's not trivial, and getting it 'right' takes a lot of work.

[mdpopescu]

> as we felt he might have trouble being managed by people significantly older than him

You didn't hire him because of his age. Isn't that illegal in pretty much the entire western world?

[Insanity]

It probably is. But, given a reason as "not being a good cultural fit" does not have to describe that it is about age I presume.

I guess that you can always make up some kind of excuse other than just saying "too old". But I am unaware of how they corresponded this to the person in question.

[basseq]

It's hard to understand whether this was a concern backed by data (observation), or general discrimination.

The former is legitimate: "this person will have issues with management and cause problems". The reason for this is a moot point: the candidate has issues with younger people, the candidate has a chip on his or her shoulder, or some other reason.

The latter is questionable: "This person is old, and old people have issues working for younger people, so we won't hire him."

[Arizhel]

>but in the end did not do it as we felt he might have trouble being managed by people significantly older than him.

Why would he have trouble being managed by people older than him?

[Insanity]

Thank you for pointing that out, that of course had to be _younger_ than him :-)

[ff10]

> Just out of curiousity btw, does 'ff10' hold any relation to 'fast fingers'?

Nah, I ain't that fast. There's a completely different story behind that but there's also a time and place for everything ;-)

[NicoJuicy]

Where do you live in Belgium? ( I'm also from BE ;) )

[Insanity]

Live, studied, and currently work in Leuven :-)

[eikenberry]

A lot of what you read, particularly here on HN, tends to be more about silicon valley than about the US in general. The ageism issue is a particularly good example of this as the valley is so much worse in this regard than most of the rest of the country.

[vanderZwan]

Sounds very sensible - I strongly believe in the benefits of having a diverse work-environment, and that includes diversity of age.

Out of personal interest (my partner lives in Germany. I'm considering moving there in the long term, and I'm your age), how would you describe the German situation when it comes to diversity in general?

[ff10]

Are you living in the US? That's a very broad question. Let me try to give you my impression in a few words...

I think the diversity situation is not as complex in Germany compared to the coastal areas in the US – if you're talking about ethnicity. Sexual orientation and identity is not as much of a big deal here as well. Not because those questions are frowned upon or considered unimportant, but because those things are looked at with a more relaxed, laissez-faire attitude, at least in the urban areas. It's much less charged with political and religious ideas and action, maybe also because those questions are considered _a bit_ more private as well.

Those are just my 2 cents though, maybe someone else can add his own view, I'd be very interested in that myself.

[hodgesrm]

How is your German? Speaking the language is permission to play in most workplaces unless you are in some sort of ex-pat environment like the US military. Without language skills you are likely to remain an outsider in non-work situations as well.

(This is not a hit on Germany, which is a wonderful place. It's just how things work in the German-speaking parts of Europe.)

[luca_ing]

> How is your German? Speaking the language is permission to play in most workplaces unless you are in some sort of ex-pat environment like the US military.

This is contrary to my personal experience.

English was absolutely the lingua franca.

At my last jobs (I'm a freelancer, so I get around), Germans were clearly the minority. The language environment tended to be very fluid; people joining or leaving a conversation would cause a switch in language, sometimes mid-sentence.

I currently work with 3 Russians, 1 Pakistani, 3 Germans.

> Without language skills you are likely to remain an outsider in non-work situations as well.

If you're thinking of outings with the team, if they are halfway decent they'll take you under their wing.

If you're thinking of day-to-day situations, it'll be harder of course, but absolutely feasible. Many people speak reasonable English.

[hodgesrm]

My experience has been more along the lines of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385. I speak German and most people can't tell I'm a foreigner. It would be a lot less fun otherwise. You're really missing a lot if you only speak English.

To be fair a lot of my interaction has been in areas outside of large cities like Berlin, which are far more cosmopolitan than they used to be.