[dheera]

On a similar note, I always find it ridiculous when I have to do things like

    apt-get install npm && npm install bower && bower install ...

Why can't we just use apt-get and Makefiles for everything?

Why can't npm be turned into ppa:nodejs and pip be turned into ppa:python?

[tikhonj]

I've thought the same for a while, and now I'm looking to Nix[1] as a solution. Upside: strong fundamental design, extreme reproducibility, great Haskell support. Downside: small community, middling OS X support, essentially non-existent Windows support.

It's still squarely in early adopter territory and the documentation is woeful, but if you're willing to put up with that it really does feel like the "one true package manager" I've been searching for. I've been using it at work and while the setup was painful and some things are still awkward (ie statically linking Haskell executables), it's been incredible overall. The up-front work in learning the system and getting it running has paid off already, and it'll pay off even more as I continue using Nix for other things.

[1]: https://nixos.org/nix/

[ponyfleisch]

> Why can't we just use apt-get and Makefiles for everything?

Because Makefiles are quite limiting.

> Why can't npm be turned into ppa:nodejs and pip be turned into ppa:python?

Because that would be OS specific.

[shakna]

Makefiles are limiting? They have their own macros, and support M4 as well (macros with recursion), not to mention the DSL is Turing complete.

Make runs on Windows, OS X, Linux and Android.

How is a Makefile quite limited?

[erlehmann_]

I know at least three reasons why makefiles are not working well for common use cases. Many people seem unaware of these cases, even though they seem to come up quite often.

• make(1) has a hard time rebuilding target files when source files have changed. The problem is that users have to declare the dependencies of a target before the build, but due to file search paths, it can be that dependencies are only known after building a target. To know about all dependencies, make(1) would have to build any target at least twice.

• make(1) by default does not rebuild a target when its build rules change. While this seems really weird to me, it seems to be a consequence of having a single makefile. When a build rule is changed, the makefile changes. So should all targets depend on the makefile implicitly? One could argue that they should – but then each change in a makefile would rebuild all targets.

• make(1) can not handle non-existence dependencies. Imagine a file foo.h being searched for by a compiler in directories bar and baz (in that order). If the header file baz/foo.h is found, then bar/foo.h should be considered a non-existence dependency: If at any future point in time it exists, the target should be rebuilt.

These problems are all solved by DJB's redo approach, which I implemented in a few hundred lines of Bourne shell (/bin/sh): http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/redo-sh.html

[shakna]

Those don't seem limitations of make itself, but rather the compiler and linker you use with it...

The compiler may know paths, the linker may know paths, the shell might, make might, or you can supply them.

I've seen and used nested Makefiles before.

These things aren't really make things. If I use tcc, Haskell or Go in my Makefile, then they mightn't apply.

If you can write it in Bash, you can integrate it into your Makefile.

[erlehmann_]

I think that all of these are limitations of not only make(1), but all utilities that expect dependencies to be fully known before a target is built. What makes you think they are not?

How would you solve all three problems I listed using make(1)?

[shakna]

Why should make solve the dependency expectations of what it is building?

If I use pip as part of my buildchain, then it has a series of places it can lookup, or you can supply one. Same with npm, cargo, and even Go.

If instead, I use a tool that has dynamic lookup, then it will only look in those places after the event.

So, if I used make to send a command like:

    $(echo 'require "foo"' > bar.lua)

Then it can lookup those when the lua file is called, later in the process.

So how would this be a limitation of make itself? The limitation only exists in what you call with make... Which could be anything.

[mseebach]

C already does what PHP does. Why do you need PHP?

COBOL already did what C does, why do you need C?

Assembler is Turing complete.

How is assembler quite limited compared to PHP (or C or COBOL)?

[shakna]

All languages have their place, some in history, some in very narrow fields, some in general use.

That was not my argument.

My argument, was calling make "quite limited".

How would you call make limited? The syntax is expressive, and so is the macro access.

I never said I wanted to replace or not replace make.

[mseebach]

Because "limiting" has a broader meaning than what is merely possible with enough effort. The experience of practically everybody who hasn't already put in the effort to learn make is that they get much further much faster in more modern build systems - indeed, framework specific build systems often do exactly what you need them to do with no or very little configuration at all. That is a feeling of not being limited by the tool.

[mseebach]

Also, both npm and pip support version-controlled per-project dependency configuration, something that apt needs containerisation to achieve.

[derimagia]

Different tools specific to their job, they wouldn't be good to combine together. apt-get only exists for linux, requires root and is designed for that, npm doesn't. apt-get installs the latest version, npm expects more specific verisons since it's for code. npm is built for node's ecosystem and apt-get is better for system packages.

[waibelp]

Welcome to dependency hell! Working for years in different "php environments" I learnt that most (web) developers I met in this field tend to use as much new fancy tools out there without thinking about business value and longterm impact. At the end of the day you might end up with more than four dependency systems...

To respond to your initial question if we really need so much dependency systems: No, we don't need to!

As the author already needs to use composer to set up PHP dependencies why not use composer for the other packages required? It's not a problem to get the common needed libraries via composer which dramatically reduces dependency complexity, deployment and build scripts because you don't need that much tools.

[TuringNYC]

>> apt-get install npm && npm install bower && bower install ...

Turtles all the way down!

[neurostimulant]

npm advantage (or disadvantage depending on who you asked) is the project owner has direct control over release cycle. The owner can decide when to push an update and it will be available to everyone immediately regardless of their operating system.